Something that actually bugs me out about the class design

[shroudb]

I thought that there was an active attempt to move away from individual "ability timers". Or at least as much as posible.

Using universal systems like focus points and etc to tie in all those "once per 10 minutes" abilities.

Once per day abilities I can see bcause they represent something very powerful that can be done once per adventuring day. Also, their bookeeping is pretty straightforward.

But... All those "can only be affected by X every 10 minutes" that exist in the playtest is (in my opinion always) a huge step backwards towards the "less bookkeeping" core design of pf2.

Couldn't there be a universal way to track those instead of having 5 (as an example) 5 different abilitites that each can be used 1/10min to each different target?

I can easily see bookepping confusion going on if you start to go "i have use this healing ability on party member 1,2,4 this period, and that healing ability on member 3,2,5. I've also used this one timed ability only on 1 and 5. So now that I am in this element, I can use... which ability on whom again?"

[Angel Hunter D]

yeah, this is entirely what the focus system was supposed to replace. but for some reason they don't want to use it as widely as it should be used.

[shroudb]

Angel Hunter D wrote:

yeah, this is entirely what the focus system was supposed to replace. but for some reason they don't want to use it as widely as it should be used.

tbf, this time around i dont think that the focus system would help, because it isnt that you can use said abilities "once per 10 minutes". It is that those abilities enforce a 10 minute immunity to them.

So, a kineticist can do them like 5 times, but only once per target.

We would need something like a reverse focus point system, that affected the targets instead of affecting the caster.

Maybe a simple condition on the target could work. Like "Energized".

Give the abilities that have said timers a similar Trait like "Energizing".

And then have something like:
"Each time you cast an Energizing ability on a target, increase his Energized condition by 1 to a maximum of 2. You cannot cast an Energizing ability to someone who is Energized 2 already. Energized dissipates to 0 after 10 minutes."

While this would be a buff in the sense that you could cast as an example twice the same ability on them, it's also a nerf because you cannot cast 3 different abilities on them as well. Balance and the "maximum" can always be tweaked of course, but it does make the bookeeping simpler.

[Guntermench]

There's a number of abilities that have had this design since launch. This class just send to have the most so far.

[Angel Hunter D]

shroudb wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

yeah, this is entirely what the focus system was supposed to replace. but for some reason they don't want to use it as widely as it should be used.

tbf, this time around i dont think that the focus system would help, because it isnt that you can use said abilities "once per 10 minutes". It is that those abilities enforce a 10 minute immunity to them.

So, a kineticist can do them like 5 times, but only once per target.

We would need something like a reverse focus point system, that affected the targets instead of affecting the caster.

Maybe a simple condition on the target could work. Like "Energized".

Give the abilities that have said timers a similar Trait like "Energizing".

And then have something like:
"Each time you cast an Energizing ability on a target, increase his Energized condition by 1 to a maximum of 2. You cannot cast an Energizing ability to someone who is Energized 2 already. Energized dissipates to 0 after 10 minutes."

While this would be a buff in the sense that you could cast as an example twice the same ability on them, it's also a nerf because you cannot cast 3 different abilities on them as well. Balance and the "maximum" can always be tweaked of course, but it does make the bookeeping simpler.

I see what you mean. Probably should have had a keyword since core then.

[shroudb]

Guntermench wrote:

There's a number of abilities that have had this design since launch. This class just send to have the most so far.

yeah, that's what i mean a step back. The system tried to minimize them, but as we go forward suddenly they increase instead of lessening.

if you only have 1, then there is not a problem, you just keep track on whom you used it. But exactly because this class has a lot of those, it suddenly is a problem.

having 3 abilities where each individual ability requires notekeeping for 5 targets, and it already starts to boggle down the system.

[Ediwir]

Maybe "Bolstered" or "Inoculated"?

We've gone through this, it gets more confusing than just "immune". There's definitely a lot of immunisation, but the issue isn't the name.

[Milo v3]

I like that they're not using Focus or similar set ups for it, since that makes all of those abilities to be competing for a shared resource.

[Malk_Content]

I don't think 10 minutes is that bad, its a less gamey "once per encounter" is all.

[Tweezer]

I don't really think giving it a keyword would lessen the book keeping related to it.

You would still need to remember who had been tagged by the condition/keyword.

The other issue with the keyword+condition approach suggested above, is that it still wouldn't mimic what we can do now.

If abilities with a cooldown left a condition/immunity, it's safe to assume that that condition would make the target immune to any ability with the same tag.

But right now, you can potentially use the healing ability from each element on the same target within the same turn (or almost)

[Angel Hunter D]

Yeah, it has its advantages but on some level it seems fundamentally at odds with the system goals, to me at least.

[Tweezer]

Angel Hunter D wrote:

Yeah, it has its advantages but on some level it seems fundamentally at odds with the system goals, to me at least.

I completely agree with you. I was just pointing out, that I don't think there's a better way to get the current result of timered abilities.

Ir at least, I can't see it.

[Unicore]

I am also not a fan of the timered abilities. It is the one sticking point of the class for me and it seems pretty specially tied to issues with the nature of unlimited healing, and replicating some spells

The worst part about it is that this makes Kineticists 10x better as generals of armies as NPCs than it does as player characters. I won’t try to suggest how to fix it, but this approach has issues.

[Malk_Content]

Unicore wrote:

The worst part about it is that this makes Kineticists 10x better as generals of armies as NPCs than it does as player characters. I won’t try to suggest how to fix it, but this approach has issues.

That's kinda true of most classes regardless of timer based abilities or not. The only reason most AoE damage abilities don't have ridiculous damage potential is because we expect to have only 3-6 enemies in a fight.

[Ravingdork]

Though I agree with the sentiment, I'm not sure what everyone was expecting. So many people have been saying for years "kineticists better not use focus points or be spellcasters." Well, this is the result of their wish.

[Kekkres]

this isnt even new? like, this is more or less how demoralize works in the core rules no? or how with focus cantrips work?

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I do like the solution of an "energized" condition (or somesuch) that clears after a 10-minute rest to prevent spamming. Since at the table you can just toss a card or a token to an effected player, and they can hand it back after the short rest. Keeps the book keeping simple.