Eidolons: limbs and free hands


Rules Discussion


Are their number of limbs and free hands simply determined and/or limited by the eidolon's form or is there something else?

I didn't think this was going to be relevant to my eidolon until I started considering grappling. My construct eidolon is a mechanical hydra with two arms, no legs, one big tail, and a head for each evolution feat it has. Other than shaping its unarmed attacks (bite and tail), these were all purely aesthetic choices. Fortunately, I'm only level 4 so it's pretty far off from being too relevant but probably a good idea to ask this now.

Here are some scenarios I ran into that got me thinking about this:

1. Luckily, I gave my eidolon arms, but if I didn't, I wouldn't have been able to grapple with it since grapple requires at least one free hand? Although, I would think if I could get some of its many heads designated as 'free hands' instead, with GM assist, I could grapple with those?

2. Is there an actual limit to how many limbs and free hands an eidolon could have then? Could I have just created a hand hydra with more than enough free hands that could make it grapple as many things it wants? That seems super cheeky and I don't even know how comfortable I am with that. I think my GM would give it two functional free hands at most no matter how many limbs it has. I probably would too.

3. How about limbs in relation to its unarmed attacks? I gave my eidolon's secondary tail attack grapple through advanced weaponry. It has one tail, so when it grapples with that, it loses the ability to strike with the tail, right? Would it have been better to give grapple to the bite attack then since it has multiple heads? In this configuration, if only one head is grappling, it would still has access to both attacks. Additionally, those heads are also free to grapple more targets since the grapple trait nixes the free hand requirement. This smells similarly cheeky as the free hands situation.

I don't think I realized how much the eidolon's aesthetic form could affect a gameplay mechanic this much, at least with my current understanding of things. I'm pretty happy with my eidolon though so it's now more being more conscious about its attacks and how I configure their traits with feats I decide on in the future. However, I do think I'm missing a key ruling or two with either grappling or eidolons here, both of which I'm not the most well-acquainted with, so anything helps.


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Dryades wrote:
I don't think I realized how much the eidolon's aesthetic form could affect a gameplay mechanic this much

Ideally, it shouldn't. But I am not sure that is codified into the rules well enough.

It is pretty standard for characters to have 2 hands available. So I would go with that for Eidolon as well - whether they are described as having hands or not.

Unarmed attacks for regular characters are a bit of a mix. Some are made with hands and require a free hand in order to use. Most are a different body part entirely (or at least can be) and can be used with both of your hands full. The basic Animal Form version of Wild Morph falls into the first category - you have to have a hand free in order to use the attack. Surprisingly, "Fist" - the basic unarmed attack that everyone has - falls into the second. You can make that attack with feet and such.

So for my rulings on the specific questions:

1) I wouldn't prevent you from using grapple even if the Eidolon was described as not having hands or arms.

2) They mechanically only have two hands no matter how many appendages they are described with. So they could only grapple up to 2 creatures. There is also an action limit to the number of creatures that can be grappled since a grapple has to be maintained on future rounds or the target escapes automatically.

2b) I would generally go with allowing the Eidolon to use their unarmed attacks while their 'hands' are full. Just like other characters can use most of their unarmed attacks with their hands full.

3) I also think that if you are using one of the unarmed attacks to grapple with, that you can't also use that unarmed attack to Strike with. No matter how many limbs could be used for that attack. So having multiple heads with a bite attack with the grapple trait you could mechanically still only grab one creature with it. But you could grab with one of the free hands afterwards and use the bite attack after that. From a narrative and description point of view, that could be described as grabbing with one head and attacking with another (the grabbing head being one of the 'hands' that the Eidolon has).


I think my GM and I will see eye-to-eye on the free hands part. Just like you said, 2 hands is the PC standard so following that should be the most natural direction to take.

breithauptclan wrote:
2) They mechanically only have two hands no matter how many appendages they are described with. So they could only grapple up to 2 creatures. There is also an action limit to the number of creatures that can be grappled since a grapple has to be maintained on future rounds or the target escapes automatically.

Right. See, I know nothing about grappling. The maintenance is grappling again as an action, right? And for each hand too, huh? It's also a repeat roll so it's not even guaranteed like sustaining spells.

breithauptclan wrote:
3) I also think that if you are using one of the unarmed attacks to grapple with, that you can't also use that unarmed attack to Strike with. No matter how many limbs could be used for that attack. So having multiple heads with a bite attack with the grapple trait you could mechanically still only grab one creature with it. But you could grab with one of the free hands afterwards and use the bite attack after that. From a narrative and description point of view, that could be described as grabbing with one head and attacking with another (the grabbing head being one of the 'hands' that the Eidolon has).

So putting it altogether from this perspective, my eidolon could theoretically grab two things with its 2 free "hands" and an additional with its unarmed attack with the grapple trait. At this point, the unarmed attack that it didn't grab with is still available to strike with. Do I have that correct?

If that's the case, it's actually a relevant choice on which attack I put the grapple trait on. There are many considerations here that'll depend on what attack pattern I develop and/or how often I'll actually end up grabbing things.


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Seems right to me. It is similar to another question asked recently about Monk and Shadow Grasp.


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Dryades wrote:
The maintenance is grappling again as an action, right? And for each hand too, huh? It's also a repeat roll so it's not even guaranteed like sustaining spells.

Oh, and: yes, and yes. Not sure if the Eidolon can get some of the feats that let you both Strike and grapple in the same action or not. If they are skill feats, then probably eventually. If they are class feats, then probably not.


breithauptclan wrote:
Seems right to me. It is similar to another question asked recently about Monk and Shadow Grasp.

I totally had similar questions and scenarios in mind discussed there. I always appreciate as many examples and visualizations I can get to make things as clear as possible.

breithauptclan wrote:
Not sure if the Eidolon can get some of the feats that let you both Strike and grapple in the same action or not. If they are skill feats, then probably eventually. If they are class feats, then probably not.

I think the most they can get is access to Grab, but no action savers afaik. I almost brought this one up as a way to re-grab every grabbed creature at once for one action. However, it can only do that to those you've grabbed with Grab, not any you've grappled manually.

Thanks a bunch! It really helped trim the fat from what I have to explain to my GM and I incidentally learned several new things as a bonus.

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