Mad Monkeys spell - Nauseated condition duration

[Visandrix]

Reading the Mad Monkeys spell entry, i have always had a doubt about what should be the correct interpretation of the Nauseated condition duration, as applyed by the Distraction ability of the conjured swarm.

Mad Monkeys:

Quote:

Source Ultimate Magic pg. 227

School conjuration (summoning); Level arcanist 3, bard 3, druid 3, hunter 3, skald 3, sorcerer 3, summoner 3, summoner (unchained) 3, wizard 3
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect swarm of monkeys
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You summon a swarm of screeching, mischievous monkeys. The swarm understands and obeys your commands and has the statistics of a monkey swarm. Creatures failing a saving throw against the mad monkeys’ distraction attack are deafened for 1 minute as well as nauseated. The monkeys attempt one disarm or steal combat maneuver each turn as a free action against any creature that begins its turn in the swarm, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for druids and oracles; Charisma for bards, sorcerers, and summoners) for its CMB. Recovering an item from the monkeys requires a successful disarm or steal attempt against that CMB + 10. An object stolen by the monkeys takes swarm damage each round the swarm is in possession of the object.

From AonPRD

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Now... the distraction ability referenced in Monkey Swarm entry (AonPRD):

Distraction (EX):

Quote:

Source Bestiary 6 pg. 292, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 299, Bestiary 2 pg. 296, Bestiary 3 pg. 294, Bestiary 4 pg. 293, Bestiary 5 pg. 292

A creature with this ability can nauseate creatures it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 creature’s HD + creature’s Constitution modifier) negates the effect.

Format: distraction (DC 14)
Location: Special Attacks.

From AonPRD

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Reading both makes me assume that the outgoing effect of the modified Distraction ability is:

1 minute deafened (effect added by spell) | 1 round nauseated (effect inherited from standard "Distraction")

(The "as well as" makes me think that way)

By the way, in the groups where i played, there has always been the lingering doubt that the duration of nauseated would instead be 1 minute.
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Am i interpreting this correctly ?

[Diego Rossi]

Balance wise giving a swarm the ability to impose the nauseated condition for 1 minute if very powerful, as you can force several characther to try the save each round.

Mad Monkeys is a level 3 summoning spell, so it is meant to summon a CR 2 or at most 3 creature. The Monkey swarm is already a powerful CR 2 creature, the spell add even more powers and the ability to steal and destroy stuff, it doesn't need even more power.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

My interpretation has been that victims are nauseated only as long as the monkeys are actively bothering them.

[Diego Rossi]

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

My interpretation has been that victims are nauseated only as long as the monkeys are actively bothering them.

You are arguing in favor of the possibility to lock someone into a nauseated condifion for several rounds if he fails a single save?

[Visandrix]

Indeed, i have always felt like assuming a 1 minute "nauseated lock" is a potential session/campaign breaker, especially at lower levels. (DC 14, at least it doesn't scale with the conjurer level...)

Once, in a session where i was a player (in a one-shot, where it was assumed nauseated would last for 1 minute), the spell's swarm effectively locked out of combat 3 players easily... was really unfunny.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

My interpretation has been that victims are nauseated only as long as the monkeys are actively bothering them.

You are arguing in favor of the possibility to lock someone into a nauseated condifion for several rounds if he fails a single save?

Sort of like Stinking Cloud, yes.

[Derklord]

"Creatures failing a saving throw against the mad monkeys’ distraction attack are deafened for 1 minute as well as nauseated."

Since the nauseated is mentioned after the duration for the deafness, it cannot be affected by that one. Thus it defaults to the standard set in the Universal Monster Rules. If the nauseated was to also be for one minute, it would have to be worded "Creatures failing a saving throw against the mad monkeys’ distraction attack are deafened and nauseated for 1 minute."

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

My interpretation has been that victims are nauseated only as long as the monkeys are actively bothering them.

"Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 creature’s HD + creature’s Constitution modifier) negates the effect."

Also, "Swarms possess the distraction universal monster rule. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Will save."

Related rules: "In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. [...]

Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. [...] Swarms do not threaten creatures, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack. However, they distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described [above]."

So spellcasting is prevented while in the same square, and the distraction ability, which happens after movement, nauseates for 1 round.

[Diego Rossi]

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

My interpretation has been that victims are nauseated only as long as the monkeys are actively bothering them.

You are arguing in favor of the possibility to lock someone into a nauseated condifion for several rounds if he fails a single save?

Sort of like Stinking Cloud, yes.

Stinking cloud doesn't deal damage, disarm your, and steal and damage your equipment while keping you nauseated. Normally can't be commanded to move with you. It is a poison effect so there are ways to resist it. And the effect last 1d4+1 rounds after you leave the cloud, not 1 minute.

So, yes, the power difference is very large. Stinking cloud is generally weaker.

The only advantage it has is that the DC increase with the stats of the caster, while Mad Monkey nauseated effect increase with the stats of the swarm.
Augment summoning, something that most caster that rutinely use summoned creatures will take will aument the DC of the spell by 2 without any increase to the spell level.

[Kurald Galain]

Derklord wrote:

"Creatures failing a saving throw against the mad monkeys’ distraction attack are deafened for 1 minute as well as nauseated."

Indeed. It doesn't say "deafened and nauseated for 1 minute", it says deafened for 1 minute, meaning nauseated is as normal for a swarm's distraction, meaning one round.

Of course, if they're still in the swarm, they can get distracted again the next round.

[Mightypion]

Its still a really powerful spell, even with the 1 round nauseate. Nauseate for 1 minute would be fairly bonkers.