I've seen a lot of topics on the changes to this Arcana, but more often than not the focus has been on the magus's effective swashbuckler level for determining the gained deed's effect being 0. I completely get that the intent for this was to disqualify Precise Strike as a deed for the magus. Fair enough.
What I haven't seen discussed as often is this bit:
Quote: The magus can use that deed by using points from his arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed. Even if he gains a panache pool through another means, the magus is not considered to have at least 1 point in his panache pool for the purpose of deeds selected with arcane deed, ... And I'm wondering if there's ever been any clarification from developers on this board that I've missed in my searches, or elsewhere.
The assumption seems to be that the magus does not get to pick a deed that requires you to "have at least 1 point in his panache pool," but this has always read to me as disqualifying level dipping and the amateur swashbuckler feat as a means to always keep the gained deed running--not preventing you from picking the deed itself. You're essentially being asked to, e.g., always have an arcana point available in order to "kip-up from prone as a move action without provoking an attack of opportunity," and to actually spend an arcana point to "kip-up as a swift action." And if you think about it, asking a magus--who cannot regain arcana by confirming a critical or defeating an enemy--to hold on to an arcana point at all times is more easily said than done, especially at low levels.
I appreciate that this is nothing but an RAI read on my part, and that not everyone will agree. Again, I'm genuinely curious to see if any of the design team offered any definitive words on the matter.
Thanks in advance!
RAW, it means that taking Kip-Up with Arcane Deed does absolutely nothing. For the purpose of that deed, you are never considered to have at least one panache point, therefore you cannot use the deed.
I get that the goal of nerfing Arcane Deed was to prevent a Magus from taking Precise Strike (which, to be fair, was pretty overpowered). But what they did was make Arcane Deed utterly useless; there are essentially zero swashbuckler deeds that you can use it with. So just dip swash for the L1 deeds and skip this arcana.
But at least Flamboyant Arcana still works.
Again, and with respect, I completely get that what you stated is the consensus opinion since the deeds in question were re-written. I’m simply curious if any developers have weighed in to confirm it on this or other fora.
(And I’m particularly happy I got your attention, because I figure if anyone knows the answer to that question… it would be you!)
TLDR: IMHO Simply the nature of how the Deed is obtained or made available, determines the relevant Pool and Class levels that influence it's abilities.
I haven't been able to find anything substantiated by devs however, with respect to everyone that has weighed in with much more experience than myself in the pathfinder world, I don't see how it can't mean the following:
Arcane Pool Points (APP) = Panache Pool Points (P3) (To include having "1" remaining)
The nerf is that any bonus you would get from Swashbuckler (SB) levels is negated (Com ref example: Prec Stk - you can take the deed and so long as you have 1 APP it would be "active" but the buff you gain is +0, so its useless) and you can't shallow dip to maintain an effectively constant buff where appropriate or (and i'm fairly confident the real intent) essentially "add" to your Pool account for those deeds. By obtaining the Deed in this manner it is as it's title suggests an Arcane Deed not a SB Deed and thus only APP apply to the usage of the deed.
Even the Evasion Deed, while still dope, gives you no defense from a Rouge's sneak attack, but still gives you the protection from all the other threats to negating your Dex to AC that UCD and +2 Atk Bon IUCD provide outside of the Rouge threat.
If you were to dip into SB your Panache is only available to be utilized for Deed's available to the SB Class only. (Ex: a LV 7 Mag/3 SB w/ Superior Feint Arc Deed; if you were out of APP as Mag but still had P3 as SB you couldn't utilize the P3 to use Sup Fei because your SB isn't LV 7, and conversely you couldn't take the Prec Stk w/ Arc Deed and utilize the 3 SB lvls to boost attack DMG.)
I do understand the confusion that the narrative creates (after reading the takes and it, many many times), I can't see any other way to take how it is specifically written coupled with how Flam Arc is written it seems they were just trying to (albeit in not the most concise manner) establish and emphasize that APP and P3 where not interchangeable and Mag and SB Lvls could not work in conjunction with one another in regards to Deeds.
JTiberius38 wrote: Even the Evasion Deed, while still dope, gives you no defense from a Rouge's sneak attack, but still gives you the protection from all the other threats to negating your Dex to AC that UCD and +2 Atk Bon IUCD provide outside of the Rouge threat. No, that's not how it works.
Quote: Evasive (Ex): At 11th level, while a swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, she gains the benefits of the evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge rogue class features. She uses her swashbuckler level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge. You never count as having at least 1 Panache point, and thus never gain anything from the deed.
With respect to you both, this topic was only started in the hopes of being directed to any further clarifications by developers or other Paizo folks. Again, I’m well aware of the consensus opinion on this forum with regard to Arcane Deed and what Swashbucklers Deeds do or do not work for the Magus.
willuwontu wrote: JTiberius38 wrote: Even the Evasion Deed, while still dope, gives you no defense from a Rouge's sneak attack, but still gives you the protection from all the other threats to negating your Dex to AC that UCD and +2 Atk Bon IUCD provide outside of the Rouge threat. No, that's not how it works.
Quote: Evasive (Ex): At 11th level, while a swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, she gains the benefits of the evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge rogue class features. She uses her swashbuckler level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge. You never count as having at least 1 Panache point, and thus never gain anything from the deed. I don't know who you are and if you hold some authoritative role then I think we would all love to see that to clear the debated topic. With that it is a debate and per how I debated the function that's exactly how it works. Stating factually without reference is useless and tbh kind makes you seem like an a-hole. Warmest regards ;)
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: With respect to you both, this topic was only started in the hopes of being directed to any further clarifications by developers or other Paizo folks. Again, I’m well aware of the consensus opinion on this forum with regard to Arcane Deed and what Swashbucklers Deeds do or do not work for the Magus. I understand and also was hoping that reviving the thread might get an answer :)
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Phoebus Alexandros wrote: With respect to you both, this topic was only started in the hopes of being directed to any further clarifications by developers or other Paizo folks. Again, I’m well aware of the consensus opinion on this forum with regard to Arcane Deed and what Swashbucklers Deeds do or do not work for the Magus. Ah, sorry about that. Sadly, I don't have any recent design team clarifications for you. I'll offer this old designer post about the deed as an apology though (I'm guessing you've seen it already, but just in case).
4) Let's take a step back. Arcane Deed says
Quote: When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level. The magus can use that deed by using points from his arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed. A magus can take this arcana multiple times, each time gaining a new deed. So it doesn't give you an effective swashbuckler level for the purposes of determining the deed's power (only affects precise strike) and it doesn't say that having points in your arcane pool counts as having points in your panache pool, only that you can spend arcane instead of spend panache. The first note is probably an oversight, but I think that the second may have been an intentional decision by the freelancer, since it is far easier for a magus to not have pressure to spend his last point of arcane pool, combined with the fact that they may have been intending to block precise strike particularly (which, if so, was a good call, since it is a massive surge in magus power, given that precise strike was created to balance the damage loss between a one-handed and two-handed weapon for swash, but the magus class already in and of itself is balanced around only having a one-handed weapon). Anyway, long story short, I wouldn't even allow Arcane Deed (precise strike) to begin with.
Sadly it doesn't cover the other half of the arcana though, since that was errata'd in afterwards:
Page 104—In the Arcane Deed magus arcana, after the second sentence, add the following sentence: “Even if he gains a panache pool through another means, the magus is not considered to have at least 1 point in his panache pool for the purpose of deeds selected with arcane deed, and his effective swashbuckler level for determining such a deed’s effect is 0.” Unfortunately, I can't find any designer comments on the deed post-errata for you. But, the errata looks like it directly addresses the issues that Mark pointed out and he was part of the design team.
Thank you—that’s more or less what I was looking for! I may not agree with the thought process (re: the pressure to maintain a point of Arcane pool versus maintaining 1 point of Panache), but it nonetheless directly references what we’re talking about!
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