Battle Cry timing

[yarrchives]

Battle Cry triggers “when you roll initiative.” If successful and it frightens the target, would the target be frightened for their initiative roll or has the initiative roll already happened by this point?

[The Raven Black]

I would say it depends on how the encounter started. If you do a surprise attack and start with the Battle Cry, I would agree that it startles your opponents and thus applies to their Initiative roll.

If you are surprised by the encounter beginning, it would not.

[SuperBidi]

From strict RAW, reactions and free actions with triggers happen before the trigger. So it should apply to the Initiative roll.

But I find that both weird and disruptive, so I must admit I never apply it as a GM or ask for its application as a player.

[Baarogue]

SuperBidi wrote:

From strict RAW, reactions and free actions with triggers happen before the trigger. So it should apply to the Initiative roll.

But I find that both weird and disruptive, so I must admit I never apply it as a GM or ask for its application as a player.

You find it weird and disruptive because that's not how it is

Actions, CR 461 (emphases mine) wrote:

Reactions have triggers, which must be met for you to use the reaction. You can use a reaction anytime its trigger is met, whether it’s your turn or not. In an encounter, you get 1 reaction each round, which you can use as described on page 468. Outside of encounters, your use of reactions is more flexible and up to the GM. Reactions are usually triggered by other creatures or by events outside your control.

Free actions don’t cost you any of your actions per turn, nor do they cost your reaction. A free action with no trigger follows the same rules as a single action (except the action cost), and a free action with a trigger follows the same rules as a reaction (except the reaction cost).

Actions with Triggers, CR 462 (emphasis mine) wrote:

You can use free actions that have triggers and reactions only in response to certain events. Each such reaction and free action lists the trigger that must happen for you to perform it. When its trigger is satisfied—and only when it is satisfied—you can use the reaction or free action, though you don’t have to use the action if you don’t want to.

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Only a disrupting reaction and some specific stated cases (like Reactive Shield changing the outcome) can "rewind time" (to a degree of plausibility) to prevent its trigger from occurring retroactively

Disrupting Actions, CR 462-463 wrote:

Various abilities and conditions, such as an Attack of Opportunity, can disrupt an action. When an action is disrupted, you still use the actions or reactions you committed and you still expend any costs, but the action’s effects don’t occur. In the case of an activity, you usually lose all actions spent for the activity up through the end of that turn. For instance, if you began a Cast a Spell activity requiring 3 actions and the first action was disrupted, you lose all 3 actions that you committed to that activity.

The GM decides what effects a disruption causes beyond simply negating the effects that would have occurred from the disrupted action. For instance, a Leap disrupted midway wouldn’t transport you back to the start of your jump, and a disrupted item hand off might cause the item to fall to the ground instead of staying in the hand of the creature who was trying to give it away.

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As to the OP's question, I'd say it's up to the GM if the Battle Cry affects the target's initiative check. I'd probably allow it because that appears to fit the intent of the ability

[Castilliano]

Initiatives are concurrent, so unless the feat has retroactive language (which Battle Cry lacks), I'd say it doesn't effect the enemy's initiative.

[Dryades]

The existence of triggers that say “you are about to roll initiative” in contrast to “you roll initiative” makes me inclined to think Battle Cry wouldn’t affect initiative. Most of those triggers alter initiative rolls or results so it would make sense why they would clearly need to happen before the initiative roll instead of after. It seems like a deliberate difference.

[Lycar]

Dryades wrote:

The existence of triggers that say “you are about to roll initiative” in contrast to “you roll initiative” makes me inclined to think Battle Cry wouldn’t affect initiative. Most of those triggers alter initiative rolls or results so it would make sense why they would clearly need to happen before the initiative roll instead of after. It seems like a deliberate difference.

Uhm, wouldn't 'you are about to' indicate that the Battle Cry does indeed happen before initiative is actually rolled? In that case, surprise wouldn't even matter. Imagine a bunch of bandits jumping the party, and the Barbarian or whoever letting loose their Battle Cry, giving the bandits second thoughts about that ambush (and thus a penalty to their initiative)...

[Aw3som3-117]

Lycar wrote:

Dryades wrote:

The existence of triggers that say “you are about to roll initiative” in contrast to “you roll initiative” makes me inclined to think Battle Cry wouldn’t affect initiative. Most of those triggers alter initiative rolls or results so it would make sense why they would clearly need to happen before the initiative roll instead of after. It seems like a deliberate difference.

Uhm, wouldn't 'you are about to' indicate that the Battle Cry does indeed happen before initiative is actually rolled? In that case, surprise wouldn't even matter. Imagine a bunch of bandits jumping the party, and the Barbarian or whoever letting loose their Battle Cry, giving the bandits second thoughts about that ambush (and thus a penalty to their initiative)...

Uhm... that's what they were saying. Battle Cry says "When you roll initiative", not "you are about to roll initiative". Their point was that the existence of different abilities that say "you are about to roll initiative" makes them inclined to think that "when you roll initiative", which is what Battle Cry says, should be treated differently. I personally don't necessarily agree with this reasoning given that the same thing is said in different ways many places throughout pf2 sourcebooks, but it is definitely a relevant piece of evidence.

[Lycar]

Aw3som3-117 wrote:

Lycar wrote:

Dryades wrote:

The existence of triggers that say “you are about to roll initiative” in contrast to “you roll initiative” makes me inclined to think Battle Cry wouldn’t affect initiative. Most of those triggers alter initiative rolls or results so it would make sense why they would clearly need to happen before the initiative roll instead of after. It seems like a deliberate difference.

Uhm, wouldn't 'you are about to' indicate that the Battle Cry does indeed happen before initiative is actually rolled? In that case, surprise wouldn't even matter. Imagine a bunch of bandits jumping the party, and the Barbarian or whoever letting loose their Battle Cry, giving the bandits second thoughts about that ambush (and thus a penalty to their initiative)...

Uhm... that's what they were saying. Battle Cry says "When you roll initiative", not "you are about to roll initiative". Their point was that the existence of different abilities that say "you are about to roll initiative" makes them inclined to think that "when you roll initiative", which is what Battle Cry says, should be treated differently. I personally don't necessarily agree with this reasoning given that the same thing is said in different ways many places throughout pf2 sourcebooks, but it is definitely a relevant piece of evidence.

Oh okay, my bad. But yes, when it happens while the roll happens, it should not retroactively affect the outcome. I suppose it also makes the game easier to run that way.

[thewastedwalrus]

Reactions and Free actions with triggers are actually unique in that they occur at the same time as their trigger, as described under Simultaneous Actions.

Simultaneous Actions wrote:

Free actions with triggers and reactions work differently. You can use these whenever the trigger occurs, even if the trigger occurs in the middle of another action.

Everyone rolls initiative at the same time, so the trigger of "when you roll initiative" would be exactly when your enemy rolls initiative. If the attempt succeeds and the enemy would become frightened while rolling, it seems that the condition would apply to the roll.