I'm not following. Gunnery checks are either BAB +Dex or Piloting ranks (not modifier) + Dex. The only other bonuses come from within starship combat, so a full BAB class is competitive with a dedicated pilot all the way along. A 3/4 class who doesn't go into piloting will definitely start to have issues, but there are multiple roles in starship combat for a reason.
I think this is in reference to Starship Operations Manual chase rules where gunners can take special actions to influence a chase that are not an attack and presumably rely on piloting rather than BAB. I skimmed the rules and don’t remember the specifics.
The answer to the OP is that if you’re a gunner with no piloting ranks, don’t be a gunner during a chase Sequoyah have your GM house rule this already alternate/niche system.
Skimming through the rules, it specifies piloting ranks (not modifier) or BAB. So full BAB classes are on equal footing to those who investing in piloting.
Probably the issue here is the OP didn't notice the distinction between piloting skill ranks and piloting skill modifier/bonus.
During a chase, you only get your ranks, not other things that would normally add to your piloting skill.
It might be worth mentioning, anything relating to starship combat (including chases) all roles/rolls use only their skill ranks, not other bonuses to those skills.
That said, it actually is a slightly more complicated and confusing because this FAQ exist for the Starfinder CRB:
Under "Actions" on page 322 it is stated "Class features and items affect crew actions only if specifically noted in the class feature or action." Does this mean I can't benefit from the skill bonus of operative's edge or an envoy's skill expertise in starship combat?
No. When actions taken in starship combat call for a skill check, any class feature that grants bonuses to or allows rerolls with the relevant skill applies when using that skill as part of starship combat. This is an exception to the rule.
And there is an errata regarding the same passage:
Page 322: In Actions, change the sentence beginning “Class features…” to the following:
Class features or items that grant bonuses to or allow rerolls of the relevant skills can be used in starship combat.
So, you get skill ranks + ability score modifier + class granted skill bonuses during starship combat (including chases).
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Which is where the issue lies - because everyone else gets their class bonuses, feats, racial bonuses, etc - but the gunner is running with 0 bonuses because they don't spec into piloting - and they're still targeting the same DC numbers as everyone else. So they end up being much worse at the same goal.
I'm pretty sure this is incorrect.
A gunner is making a gunnery check, not a skill check. They either use their BAB or ranks in piloting + DEX + computer bonus + crew action given bonuses + range penalty + 1d20.
It's not a piloting skill check, so you don't add any class bonuses to the gunnery check. You'll have the same bonus if you're full BAB or max ranks in piloting.
They're also targetting AC, which isn't calculated based on 15 + 1.5 x lvl.
Though, if the GM is speccing their NPC starships to have as much armor as they can afford, the gunner is probably going to have a bad time. That's more on encounter design problems, than problems with being a gunner.
Which is where the issue lies - because everyone else gets their class bonuses, feats, racial bonuses, etc - but the gunner is running with 0 bonuses because they don't spec into piloting - and they're still targeting the same DC numbers as everyone else. So they end up being much worse at the same goal.
Sorry, but I think you're still misunderstanding.
It's a gunnery check for space combat, not a regular skill check.
The only things you get to add are your skill ranks, plus dex, plus any class abilities that provide bonuses to that skill.
For example, Operative's Edge ability adds a bonus to all skill actions, which includes those they might take during ship combat.
But your racial bonus, and other misc bonuses don't apply.
It's a very limited set of numbers to add together.
BAB + dex + possible class bonus vs Pilot ranks + dex + possible class bonus.
For a full BAB class, they have the same exact possible value as the character investing in piloting because it ranks only*, not your total pilot bonus.
A ranged focused full BAB class should expect to be 1 to 2 points higher than a ranged non-full BAB class, even assuming they have max ranks in piloting. Why? Because the full BAB class has probably made dex their highest stat, while the others probably haven't (but maybe they have). Class specific bonuses might even that up.
And in the case of operatives, well the usually end up the best at any skill (including star ship) that they choose to do. But that's the schtick of the class.
And it should be noted, that all the other starship combat roles/rolls are the same way.
It's skill ranks (not total bonus) + relevant ability + possibly class abilities that provide a bonus to the skill.
You can see based on the FAQ that I quoted previously that it wasn't even that way originally, but they changed the rules because it felt bad that a mechanic in starship combat would likely be on par with anyone else who decided to invest in engineering or computers in starship combat. Compare it to say a technomancer, who likely has equal or more intelligence. If they invest in computers and engineering (during starship combat) they were equal to the mechanic. Paizo realized this and changed the rules to allow class specific abilities to function. So that being good at certain things because of your class still applied to starship combat.
Making classes good at the roles you might expect them to be good at, without allowing the numbers to run away and trivialize the DCs. Which will happen if all the starship rolls are being allowed to use the full skill bonus and not just ranks.
If you take away nothing else, please note Skill RANK != Skill BONUS.
And it should be noted, that all the other starship combat roles/rolls are the same way.
It's skill ranks (not total bonus) + relevant ability + possibly class abilities that provide a bonus to the skill.
You can see based on the FAQ that I quoted previously that it wasn't even that way originally, but they changed the rules because it felt bad that a mechanic in starship combat would likely be on par with anyone else who decided to invest in engineering or computers in starship combat. Compare it to say a technomancer, who likely has equal or more intelligence. If they invest in computers and engineering (during starship combat) they were equal to the mechanic. Paizo realized this and changed the rules to allow class specific abilities to function. So that being good at certain things because of your class still applied to starship combat.
Making classes good at the roles you might expect them to be good at, without allowing the numbers to run away and trivialize the DCs. Which will happen if all the starship rolls are being allowed to use the full skill bonus and not just ranks.
If you take away nothing else, please note Skill RANK != Skill BONUS.
You're extremely off on this if I'm understanding you correctly. I may not be.
Of course everyone except the gunner uses full skill bonus, not just skill ranks, when rolling a starship combat or starship chase roll! You make a piloting check, or a computers check, or an engineering check, and all of these are defined terms from the skill chapter that target skill based DCs derived from tier formulas. They aren't defined in the the starship combat section because they don't need to be. The FAQ doesn't impact this at all, because how skills work is a matter of the skill rules, a class skill is not itself a "class ability." Pre-FAQ hairsplitters could argue that Skill Focus worked but class insight bonuses did not in starship combat, but thankfully that's laid to rest.
The gunnery check is defined, on CRB 320, because it does have different inputs (no class bonus, no insight bonus if using piloting, etc.) and targets AC, not the skill based DCs based on tier.
This is also supported by looking at the crew stats on an NPC ship. The gunnery number is always lower (past trivial starter tiers) because the skill positions have to take into account bonuses from insight/class skill equivalents to match up to PCs.
It's probably often not enough lower, because the Paizo philosophy on NPCs seems to be that NPCs can be good at delivering raw damage (so high gunnery modifiers) but maybe not quite not as good/broad at other things (so relatively low skill modifiers make the hardest ship tasks slightly harder for NPCs than for PCs, as well as class grafts giving fewer/worse PC class options).
As an example of the former, consider level 20 ships and PCs. A maxed out PC can have 20 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 9 (attribute) + 6 (insight), or +38 skill bonus for starship combat. That's not counting +2 racial, +1 theme, an extra +1 insight from being a Mystic, or +1/2 cirumstance from a Consciousness Uplink Drive. With all of that a PC could have +43, +44 on science officer checks. (I would like to meet the Int 28 level 20 Mystic who really wanted to be the galaxy's best science officer.)
Tier 20 ships in SOM have +29 gunnery (same as a max PC), and skill bonuses that range from +34 to +39. The +39 are only in Engineering (because Triune and Dwarves) and Computers (because Triune). The captain stuff and the piloting is all +34. If you limited PCs to ranks plus attribute then they'd be awful at starship combat (bar gunnery) compared to equal tier opponents. Even if you backdoor in insight bonuses from the FAQ (from class abilities but not Skill Focus, under this interpretation!) it's pretty lame. Fortunately, that's not how any of this works.
The issue for starship chases and PCs who serve as gunners in starship combat with full BAB but have no relevant starship skill modifiers is that starship chases use skill checks against skill DCs (see tables on SOM 46, text on 47) - they're allowed to substitute BAB for piloting ranks (footnote on table 2-1), but if they lack insight bonuses (which presumably a gunner with full BAB and zero piloting ranks doesn't have, since the only starfinder classe who could get there would need Skill Focus or Synergy in a skill with no ranks) and class skill bonus (some may have it even if they didn't invest ranks, so that'll be a help) they're going to be pretty bad at chase scenes.
BAB = Piloting ranks works fine in starship combat gunnery because it's a special formula targeting a special number. It doesn't translate to starship chases becasue that's pure skill bonuses vs skill DCs, with no special lower number to compensate for a lower capped gunner.
All of this said, this isn't the biggest problem in the world for an alternate system. Let the GM slap an AC on a target and let the gunner shoot it, problem solved. I'm just more concerned you've possibly been getting the basics of skill rolls in starship combat wrong and making them waaaay more difficult than they're supposed to be.
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SOM page 79 actually has the rules on how to determine NPC gunnery and skill modifiers based on tier. Except for tier 1/3, the table for NPC skill tiers at master (1 per ship) and good (the rest of the skills) is identical to the NPC templates for master/good skills in Alien Archive 1.
The gunnery formula is unique to SOM and appears to just closely but perhaps not perfectly mimick a full BAB PC pushing their dex fully via leveling and augmentation.
And it should be noted, that all the other starship combat roles/rolls are the same way.
It's skill ranks (not total bonus) + relevant ability + possibly class abilities that provide a bonus to the skill.
I think you're misreading something there.
The FAQ puts class granted abilities that deal with skills back into combat because the rules weren't supposed to remove them: the rules are there to keep you from trying to say, use your spring attack or shot on the run feat to get a free flyby. The wording however also got rid of an envoys d6 or operatives edge so they FAQ'd those abilities back in.
Racial bonuses, skill focus, and the like were never removed from starship combat skills to begin with so the FAQ doesn't cover them. Everything is described as a skill check, anything that adds to those skill checks is included.
I could swear I remember them sanitizing the options for what affected starship combat rules, but I also recall some pretty big FAQs and changes around it and I can't recall for certain, but I'm imagining maybe the line I was thinking of was part of the original scope and that they have since revised it.
Or perhaps it's just been long enough that I inadvertently applied the rule on gunnery to everything.
To be honest, the impact is pretty limited I think. I think none of the core races had an racial bonuses to any of the core starship skills.
And outsight of skill focus, there weren't too many core feats that would modify it either. Within the context of the core rule book, it wouldn't have made a significant difference.
That said, I haven't been actively playing a Starfinder game in a while and could have very likely missed or forgotten something.
To be honest, the impact is pretty limited I think. I think none of the core races had an racial bonuses to any of the core starship skills.
On the contrary, Lashunta has their pick of any two, and Ysoki had engineering.
On the contrary, Lashunta has their pick of any two, and Ysoki had engineering.
To be honest, the impact is pretty limited I think. I think none of the core races had an racial bonuses to any of the core starship skills.
That's what I get for trying to do a quick review. Still a +2 isn't a huge impact.
I guess what I'm saying is that short of characters attempting to maximize skills by combining race and skill focus (and similar feats) it was entirely possible that it didn't come up or was only a small difference.
Anyways, to be honest Starship combat is the weakest part of Starfinder as a game. It promotes death sphere strategy and is really repetitive with the only player really having much agency being the pilot. Every body else could basically automate their actions with a decision tree.
After a while my group stopped running the starship combat because they would take a long time for something we really didn't enjoy, and the outcome was basically always going to be we succeed because the APs rarely had anything lined up for what happens if your ship id disabled/destroyed.
I guess what I'm saying is that short of characters attempting to maximize skills by combining race and skill focus (and similar feats) it was entirely possible that it didn't come up or was only a small difference.
Race, skill focus, operative take 10, other take 10 abilities.
I think even more annoying would be you'd need an engineering score and an engineering when in starship combat score.