Archetype Stacking? (Sorrowsoul and Thundercaller)

[Julien Dien]

I already known the rules of Archetype Stacking, such as
(1) Two archetypes alter or replace the same class feature, No.
(2) Two archetypes alter/replace different sub-features, Yes.
(3) One alters/replaces the parent feature, another alters/replaces the sub-feature, No.

Here is the issue. Bard archetype Thundercaller replaces 5 sub-features of Bardic Performance: inspire competence, suggestion, mass suggestion, dirge of doom, frightening tune. Sorrowsoul alters bardic performance in written. So, RAW, it's clearly a PC can not take them at the same time.

But a PL states Lyric Sorrow(Sorrowsoul's feature) "actually" only alters 3 sub-features: inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire heroics. It does not touch the other sub-features or the entire Bardic Performance.

My question is, firstly, can we explain Archetype rules by "actually", not in written?
Secondly, the description of Lyric Sorrow is in two-section, the first paragraph grant a new way to use Bardic Performacne, the following para. show that the new way can be used in such specific Bardic Performacne. Is this really counted as sub-features altering?

[Belafon]

Actually - if any of the class features are altered or replaced, they don't stack.

I had this confirmed to me by one of the designers (not on the boards, so I don't have a link) when we were in a group discussing archetype stacking. Specifically the Brawler archetypes Strangler and Snakebite Striker. Literally the only reason they don't stack is that both alter Class Skills. The Strangler gains Stealth as a class skill, while the Snakebite Striker gains Bluff and Stealth and loses Intimidate as a class skill. But they don't stack even though the alterations are completely compatible. He went on to say that even if the only alteration was that one gained Stealth and the other gained Bluff they still wouldn't stack.

However: He - along with everyone else in the group - said that was really kind of silly. And that in a home game he would absolutely allow them to stack. Or any other archetypes that are compatible in such a way. Just not in a shared campaign setting (PFS).

[Name Violation]

You know what really grinds my gears?
Archetypes like constructed pugilist that "add" a class skill (craft) even though it's already a class skill, or Bladebound magus that doesn't say "this ability alters arcane pool" when it does in fact alter arcane pool.

[Diego Rossi]

Ultimate Magic wrote:

Instead of the normal arcane pool amount, the bladebound magus’s arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/3 his level (minimum 1) plus his Intelligence bonus. This ability changes the Arcane Pool class feature and replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.

[Julien Dien]

Belafon wrote:

Actually - if any of the class features are altered or replaced, they don't stack.

I had this confirmed to me by one of the designers (not on the boards, so I don't have a link) when we were in a group discussing archetype stacking. Specifically the Brawler archetypes Strangler and Snakebite Striker. Literally the only reason they don't stack is that both alter Class Skills. The Strangler gains Stealth as a class skill, while the Snakebite Striker gains Bluff and Stealth and loses Intimidate as a class skill. But they don't stack even though the alterations are completely compatible. He went on to say that even if the only alteration was that one gained Stealth and the other gained Bluff they still wouldn't stack.

Yes, according to APG FAQ, adding an additional option to Bonus Feats or an class skill is alter the entire class feature. I have no doubt about it.

Silly? Maybe. However, we play under the rules of PFS.

[Derklord]

Julien Dien wrote:

But a PL states Lyric Sorrow(Sorrowsoul's feature) "actually" only alters 3 sub-features: inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire heroics. It does not touch the other sub-features or the entire Bardic Performance.

The thing is that while it's true that Lyric Sorrow only works with some performances, in order to only have to explain the alteration once, it needs to change the whole class feature.

Name Violation wrote:

You know what really grinds my gears?

Archetypes like [...] Bladebound magus that doesn't say "this ability alters arcane pool" when it does in fact alter arcane pool.

That's because the "this alters" language didn't originally exist, and it took them a couple of years to realize that indicating changes was actually important. What Diego Rossi quoted is from the second printing of UM, released in March 2012, a point in time where they apparently realized the issue, but didnät finalize the language yet - the now normal "this alters" language first appears in ARG, published three months later.

[Julien Dien]

Derklord wrote:

in order to only have to explain the alteration once, it needs to change the whole class feature.

Yes, that's what I concern. Enentually, We observe RAW, that Lyric Sorrow does alter the whole Bardic Performance.