I'm working on an explanatory "Rules Lawyer" video about the Stealth rules, and I watched How It's Played's video on Perception. But I have yet to see any rules element where it is useful to note that a creature is Unnoticed, with one exception.
That exception is the Assassin archetype, which has a 12th level feat Assassinate, which requires that you be Unnoticed to your mark when you attack them.
Are there any other situations worth noting?
Also, I have a question about how Assassinate works. Language from the Gamemastery Guide suggests that, even when an Assassin succeeds at Avoiding Notice and is undetected to monsters, that it ceases becoming Unnoticed once a monster gets a turn in initiative:
To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage, since that character needs to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them. What if both sides are sneaking about? They might just sneak past each other entirely, or they might suddenly run into one another if they’re heading into the same location.
So my reading of this is that, even if Assassin succeeds at remaining Undetected before combat and "marks" their target before combat, if the "mark" rolls a higher Perception for initiative then the Assassinate ability becomes unavailable. Is this correct?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The famous spider senses...
In my opinion, the spider senses cause issues all the time, even the rule that you have quoted is contradicting itself: if everyone is Undetected, then both sides can't just sneak past each other.
In my opinion, it has to be ignored. The Assassin is Unnoticed if it has rolled high enough at the start of a fight.
Also, what it says is that the the hiding enemies aren't unnoticed only if the 5hr spotter rolls highest on initiative, not as soon as it gets a turn. It is a rule meant to cover a corner case where everyone rolls exceptionally high on initiative.
Otherwise, if an entire side beats the perception DC of their enemy, I generally treat them as unnoticed until they do something which gives them away. This can allow the hiding forces to set up optimal positioning or take non-obvious pre-buffs like drinking elixirs, hunting prey, or entering a stance. If you're an investigator, you can also use this time to designate a target as your lead or wait for your Devise a Strategem to roll a 20 before you strike.
That's a pretty excellent set of advantages, but it only works if your entire side does great on stealth for initiative.
I tend to agree with you guys... I prefer to have a creature's Stealth check before combat determine whether it is noticed. This is consistent with what the terms mean. If you successfully "Avoided Notice," then you are noticed until you become noticed, even if you act later than others.
This is arguably RAW, since it is consistent with the definition of Unnoticed in the Core Rulebook, versus what reads as advice in the Gamemastery "Guide."
I also think the bolded sentence is just clumsily worded. It is intended to describe the enemies as a group, not every single member of the group. The "awareness" conditions each describe a relationship between one creature and one other creature, and this adheres with common sense. So if the "mark" never gets any sign that the Assassin is around, the Assassin is unnoticed.
Captain Morgan: I like to use their pre-Encounter Stealth checks to Avoid Notice to determine awareness. Then, if one side becomes aware of the other, they may choose to instigate an Encounter. (I've always found it weird, to conflate initial awareness of a hostile group with initiative rolls. It's possible to become aware of an enemy, but be slow on the draw.)
I tend to agree with you guys... I prefer to have a creature's Stealth check before combat determine whether it is noticed. This is consistent with what the terms mean. If you successfully "Avoided Notice," then you are noticed until you become noticed, even if you act later than others.
This is arguably RAW, since it is consistent with the definition of Unnoticed in the Core Rulebook, versus what reads as advice in the Gamemastery "Guide."
I also think the bolded sentence is just clumsily worded. It is intended to describe the enemies as a group, not every single member of the group. The "awareness" conditions each describe a relationship between one creature and one other creature, and this adheres with common sense. So if the "mark" never gets any sign that the Assassin is around, the Assassin is unnoticed.
Captain Morgan: I like to use their pre-Encounter Stealth checks to Avoid Notice to determine awareness. Then, if one side becomes aware of the other, they may choose to instigate an Encounter. (I've always found it weird, to conflate initial awareness of a hostile group with initiative rolls. It's possible to become aware of an enemy, but be slow on the draw.)
Yes, that's how I do it and I'm reasonably sure is intended based on the GMG. The spider sense only comes into play if they decide to initiate an encounter.
I can see a guard who is explicitly looking out for intruders, rolling Perception for initiative and beating a PC's Stealth DC, while also beating them in initiative, noticing something strange in the corner of their eye and going to search for it.
Yeah. It is also worth noting that you're only actually observed if you critically fail a check while unnoticed. On a normal failure you're hidden. So you can plausibly fail the check, but manage to sneak away before they actually spot you.
It also means you will almost always start combat at least hidden if you're using Avoid Notice... Which is actually an insanely powerful advantage.
I can see a guard who is explicitly looking out for intruders, rolling Perception for initiative and beating a PC's Stealth DC, while also beating them in initiative, noticing something strange in the corner of their eye and going to search for it.Yeah. It is also worth noting that you're only actually observed if you critically fail a check while unnoticed. On a normal failure you're hidden. So you can plausibly fail the check, but manage to sneak away before they actually spot you.
It also means you will almost always start combat at least hidden if you're using Avoid Notice... Which is actually an insanely powerful advantage.
I personally consider that you need cover or concealment to be hidden (outside magic stuff). I don't consider that someone using Avoid Notice is Hidden if they are in the middle of a room with nothing to hide behind, that would be preposterous.
But I agree it's an interpretation of the rules.
I can see a guard who is explicitly looking out for intruders, rolling Perception for initiative and beating a PC's Stealth DC, while also beating them in initiative, noticing something strange in the corner of their eye and going to search for it.Yeah. It is also worth noting that you're only actually observed if you critically fail a check while unnoticed. On a normal failure you're hidden. So you can plausibly fail the check, but manage to sneak away before they actually spot you.
It also means you will almost always start combat at least hidden if you're using Avoid Notice... Which is actually an insanely powerful advantage.
I personally consider that you need cover or concealment to be hidden (outside magic stuff). I don't consider that someone using Avoid Notice is Hidden if they are in the middle of a room with nothing to hide behind, that would be preposterous.
But I agree it's an interpretation of the rules.
No, you have the correct ruling in mind. But if someone doesn't have the option for cover or concealmemt, I wouldn't even let them Avoid Notice in the first place. The exploration activity implies you're scurrying from cover to cover and such. If someone breaks from cover to go examine something in the middle of the room, then they've really switched over to Investigate even if they didn't specify it.
One of the many reasons halflings are great with distracting shadows. They can avoid notice while standing in the middle of a room surrounded by their friends.
No, you have the correct ruling in mind. But if someone doesn't have the option for cover or concealmemt, I wouldn't even let them Avoid Notice in the first place. The exploration activity implies you're scurrying from cover to cover and such. If someone breaks from cover to go examine something in the middle of the room, then they've really switched over to Investigate even if they didn't specify it.
One of the many reasons halflings are great with distracting shadows. They can avoid notice while standing in the middle of a room surrounded by their friends.
For Avoid Notice, I have this text: "You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed. If you have the Swift Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed rather than half, but you still can’t use another exploration activity while you do so. If you have the Legendary Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed and use a second exploration activity. If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results)."
There's nothing about Cover or Concealment, so, I'm not sure I have the correct ruling. Also, I can understand someone avoiding notice without cover: we are out of combat so the enemies are not necessarily vigilant and you can move quietly when they look elsewhere. Someone can move to the middle of the room as stealthily as possible, it's just that if a fight occurs I'll never consider them Hidden if they are not behind something.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, you have the correct ruling in mind. But if someone doesn't have the option for cover or concealmemt, I wouldn't even let them Avoid Notice in the first place. The exploration activity implies you're scurrying from cover to cover and such. If someone breaks from cover to go examine something in the middle of the room, then they've really switched over to Investigate even if they didn't specify it.
One of the many reasons halflings are great with distracting shadows. They can avoid notice while standing in the middle of a room surrounded by their friends.
For Avoid Notice, I have this text: "You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed. If you have the Swift Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed rather than half, but you still can’t use another exploration activity while you do so. If you have the Legendary Sneak feat, you can move at full Speed and use a second exploration activity. If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results)."
There's nothing about Cover or Concealment, so, I'm not sure I have the correct ruling. Also, I can understand someone avoiding notice without cover: we are out of combat so the enemies are not necessarily vigilant and you can move quietly when they look elsewhere. Someone can move to the middle of the room as stealthily as possible, it's just that if a fight occurs I'll never consider them Hidden if they are not behind something.
I feel like if you're pulling off that level of precision stealth movement you've maybe graduated to encounter mode anyway-- just one where the enemy isn't aware of you yet. But that's where we get into grey GM call territory.
If my players are Avoiding Notice I make sure they start the encounter in a position where they could reasonably hide. Outside Encounter Mode their position on the map is just a suggestion.
Same. Unless they crit failed the stealth check, in which case they probably got caught out in the open.