| Dogfax |
Good day all,
Apologies for this post in advance as it must be the 1000th on here, but I just need a little guidance in my thoughts on my first PF2 character.
I am drawn to classes...
Fighter
Druid
Summoner
and archetypes
Medic
Beastmaster
...and wondered if there is any major "do nots" in trying to multiclass two of these into a decent build. Doesn't have to be the most effective, but I just don't want to create something pathetic/one dimensional that will annoy later on.
So do any of you have any experiences you can share with me along the above selection please?
The rest of the party makeup isn't decided yet but it looks like I will need to have some form of decent melee ability (but I don't want to be a pure fighter, if that makes sense).
I mean, is Fighter/Summoner even possible? I am mentally stuck in PF1 where multiclassing was always frowned upon but I read in PF2 it is more forgiving?
Any advice is gratefully received.
| HumbleGamer |
Multiclass Archetypes allows you to pick some feats or perks from a specific class. The progression, when it comes to feats, is equal to half your level, so by lvl 8 you may be able ( assuming you took either dedication and a basic lvl 1-2 feat ) to take a lvl 4 feat of that class.
So, to answer to your question
multiclassing was always frowned upon but I read in PF2 it is more forgiving?
if your purpose is to take something extra ( and not so impactful ) from a multiclass Archetypes, they may be worth it ( without the Free Archetype variant rule you may experience a very slow progression for your character, but if your group proceeds at a good pace you won't probably suffer from it that much ).
Archetypes, in contrast to multiclass archetypes, offer a more specialized pool of feats to choose between.
Some of them share the same feats as a multiclass archetype, but they tend to give you the feats way sooner compared to the multiclass one ( which gives you all class feats, and also some class perks ).
For example, with the fighter dedication you'd get
- You become trained in simple weapons and martial weapons. You become trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics; if you are already trained in both of these skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You become trained in fighter class DC.
With the Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype
- Double Slice with the dedication, being also able to choose anything a dual-weapon warrior may find interesting. Some of the feats provided by the archetype are unique, and some the archetype shares with the fighter dedication are given a lower levels.
With the Mauler dedication
- You specialize in weapons that require two hands. You become trained in all simple and martial melee weapons that require two hands to wield or have the two-hand trait. Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in weapons, you also gain that proficiency rank in these weapons. If you are at least an expert in such a weapon, you gain access to the critical specialization effect with that weapon. Plus feats that can be useful for a mauler.
And that's it.
If you have android, I suggest you to try with the Pathbuilder 2e app ( it's also available as a web app, but given its cost to unlock all the features, I recommend it as it saves a lot of time when it comes to create characters and tweaks with them. It also allows you to import character into foundry, if you and your group use it.
To answer your final question
I mean, is Fighter/Summoner even possible?
To me, fighter summoner is not viable, because you share your pool of actions, lack Act together, have a better attack than the eidolon ( which can only get expert by lvl 12 IIRC ), you won't get double exploration activity, and so on. But you'll eventually find out yourself tweaking with your character ( Get pathbuilder 2e! At least try the web version! ).
Cheers
| Castilliano |
As HG was saying, you have to look at what you like about those classes, then ask yourself if the Multiclass Dedication (MCD) is granting you that NOT whether the class offers that (except for your main class of course). So if you like the low-level feats of a Fighter, then MCD Fighter's fine, but not if you want its higher weapon proficiency; only the Fighter itself gets access to that. And those feats might be better accessed through a different archetype.
Or if you want the Summoner's many tricks, nearly all of them are only available to a Summoner itself. The Summoner MCD's Eidelon's stats are comparable to a Summoner's Eidelon's, yay, but there's a huge difference in gameplay for the reasons HG wrote.
In PF2, your base class will always gain its main abilities, i.e. proficiencies, spells, etc., so yes, it's less costly to "multiclass" though that term might be misleading; your PC is not two+ classes. It's one class and a dabbler in another, with you gaining about 1/3 the abilities of the other class at most (and that takes a lot of feats!).
For example, yes, you can get Rage from a Barbarian MCD, but that -1 AC hurts more and more as you level while the damage bonus remains static and becomes insignificant. Meanwhile an actual Barbarian's Rage damage ramps up to compensate (among other perks).
One of the two ways to make a poor character in PF2 (the other being to intentionally do so!) is to spread it too thin. That's the main pitfall with Archetypes, thinking things like "I'll be a powerful martial and I'll have powerful spells too!" Nope. You'll be great at one (assuming you put an 18 in your offensive stat) and a dabbler in the other (which don't get me wrong, might be very worthwhile!). A Fireball cast with a lower spell proficiency and a lower casting stat for 1/2 the damage of a focused caster still makes a huge difference against a cluster of Frost Giants.
Ask yourself what aspects of those classes & archetypes appeal to you most and we can help you out, or warn you away if trying to bite off too much. Some builds might take awhile to come to fruition. And when it comes down to it, you'll have to choose what action will be your PC's primary offense when facing their worst enemies, the big bosses who will shrug off any secondary attacks or the hordes that need to be whittled down quickly before the party's overrun.
Will it be a Strike w/ a weapon? A spell of some sort? A command to an animal/Eidelon that you're supporting (recognizing its cost to your actions & options)?
The Raven Black
|
A small additional note : be careful that MC Dedications require minimum stats, which have a different impact based on the stat and your build.
If your class and the Dedication share their primary stat, it's great. If the Dedication stat is tertiary to your class, it means you will be unusual for a member of your class, and likely a little bit less optimized, though by no means useless.
| Mathmuse |
I mean, is Fighter/Summoner even possible? I am mentally stuck in PF1 where multiclassing was always frowned upon but I read in PF2 it is more forgiving?
I often multiclassed in Dungeons & Dragons 3.5, such as with an elf cleric 9/wizard 1/arcane archer 3. I continued multiclassing in Pathfinder 1st Edition with my gnome ranger/monk, but I retired that character and became a forever GM. NPCs are easier to play as single class.
Multiclassing in D&D 3.5 and PF1 involves abandoning the character's original class for a few levels and layering on another class. This is hard on spellcasting classes, because unless the new class is a spellcasting prestigue class, the character's spell progression stops and permanently remains behind even if the character returns to the spellcasting class. Likewise, multiclassing from a full BAB class to a 3/4 BAB or 1/2 BAB class permanently cripples the Base Attack Bonus of the character.
Pathfinder 2nd Edition's multiclassing is different. The character cannot abandon the original class. Once a barbarian, always a barbarian. The class features of the original class, such as spellcasting, keep progressing. Instead, with PF2 multiclass archetypes the character dabbles in a few features of another class by spending their class feats (one at every even level) on multiclass archetype feats.
HumbleGamer explained above that all that Fighter Multiclass Dedication provides is training in simple weapons and martial weapons and either Acrobatics or Athletics skill. At 4th level, the character could take Fighter Resiliency to gain a fighter's hit points or Opportunist to gain a fighter's attack of opportunity ability--just one, but the other could be taken at 6th level. The character cannot gain the fighter's expert proficiency in weapons until 12th level with the Diverse Weapon Expert feat 12, and by then all the other martial classes have expert weapon proficiency, too. The multiclassed character never gains the fighter's armor proficiency through the multiclassing, though that is available via the Armor Proficiency general feat.
Suppose a character starts as a druid. The druid is trained in unarmed attacks, simple weapons, light armor, and medium armor. He gains spellcasting of primal spells. He chooses a druidic order and gains a feature from the order: Animal Order gives an animal companion, Leaf Order gives a leshy familiar and the goodberry spell, Storm Order gives the tempest surge spell, Wild Order gives wild shape, and so on for the newer orders from Secrets of Magic. A PF2 druid could have both an animal companion and wild shape like a PF1 druid by taking the Order Explorer class feat to gain a second order, but that means he cannot spend that particular class feat slot on a multiclass archetype feat.
Suppose I want to play a warrior druid who fights alongside his animal companion. I would start with an Animal Order druid and take Fighter Dedication at 2nd level to multiclass to fighter. That trains my druid in martial weapons. Druids are already trained in medium armor, and I don't need to upgrade to heavy armor. At 4th level I take Fighter Resiliency fighter archetype feat to gain more hit points for my warrior druid's frontline combat. At 6th level, I take Mature Animal Companion druid feat to improve the animal companion, At 6th level I take Opportunist figher archetype feat for attacks of opportunity, which makes my character finally feel like a fighter, except for being only trained in martial weapons rather than expert in them. At 8th level I go for Incredible Companion. At 10th level I use the Basic Maneuver fighter archetype feat to acquire the Dragging Strike fighter feat 2.
In a typical combat, my warrior druid would Strike, Dragging Strike (it has press trait, so cannot be used on the first attack), and Command Animal. With the dragging strike, my warrior druid pulls the target into reach of his animal companion. The Command Animal lets the animal companion take two actions, such as two Strikes. That is a nice individual style, but not particularly impressive.
Meanwhile, my 10th-level warrior druid is also able to cast 5th-level primal spells. He has a lot of spell slots. A lot of the low-level slots are dedicated to spells that keep his animal companions (and his teammates, too) buffed and healthy. The warrior druid does not miss the metamagic he could have obtained from his class feats because he seldom casts during combat. Nevertheless, the spells make him feel much more like a druid than a fighter.
On the other hand, suppose we go the other way. We want a fighter with an animal companion. The Druid Dedication does not provide an animal companion immediately; because that also requires taking the Animal Companion druid feat 1 via the Basic Wilding druid archetype feat. Instead, for an immediate animal companion, go for the Animal Trainer or Beastmaster archetypes. For a close bond with one animal, I would favor Animal Trainer and for a more combat-oriented companion I would favor Beastmaster. Druid multiclass archetype and Beastmaster archetype could both give healing spells for the companion, at the cost of a class feat, while Animal Trainer does not offer that option. The beastmaster fighter is quite obviously a fighter, with expert proficiency in many weapons, heavy armor proficiency, and attacks of opportunity, but with a faithful animal companion, too. The tiny handful of spells he might be able to cast won't make him feel like a spellcaster.
On the third hand, some classes, such as Champion and Ranger, could gain an animal companion with their class feats without an archetype. Inventor can have a construct companion. That is more convenient.
The summoner's eidolon is more powerful than an animal companion. It is like a martial character with an okay unarmed strike attack. However, while a fighter with an animal companion could take 2 actions for himself, using the 3rd for Command Animal, and the animal companion can take 2 actions for itself, a summoner and eidolon share their actions. That would be 2 for the summoner and 1 for the eidolon, or 1 for the summoner and 2 for the eidolon, and all 3 for one of them. An actual Summoner has the Act Together action that effectively lets the summoner and eidolon share 4 actions between them. The Summoner Dedication does not provide Act Together. And the eidolon is missing one of its characteristic abilities unto the multiclass summoner until the character takes Initial Eidolon Ability. For a character with an eidolon, start as a Summoner.
| breithauptclan |
I am mentally stuck in PF1 where multiclassing was always frowned upon but I read in PF2 it is more forgiving?
In PF1 multiclassing was risky because you were essentially trading your highest level class features of your primary class for the lowest level features of your multiclass. Sometimes that was a good trade, but not usually. Certainly not for someone who doesn't know exactly what they are getting themselves in to. At low levels it looks appealing, but when the character becomes high level the trade becomes less and less useful because the cost (the highest level features of the primary class) becomes more costly.
In PF2 when you trade a class feat at a particular level for a multiclass feat you are trading at a specific level that doesn't change as you level up. You still get the full class feature progression of your primary class (things like your spellcasting slots, saving throw boosts, weapon proficiency boosts, etc) and you still get access to any of the high level primary class's class feats that you normally would. So trading three or four low level feats to get something cool doesn't hurt your high level character's high-end power.
| breithauptclan |
In PF2 when you trade a class feat at a particular level for a multiclass feat you are trading at a specific level that doesn't change as you level up. You still get the full class feature progression of your primary class (things like your spellcasting slots, saving throw boosts, weapon proficiency boosts, etc) and you still get access to any of the high level primary class's class feats that you normally would. So trading three or four low level feats to get something cool doesn't hurt your high level character's high-end power.
As a concrete example:
If I wanted to build a PF1 Ranger (hybrid martial class with minor spellcasting) and didn't think the focus spells were enough, I could trade out my Ranger's 2nd, 4th, and 6th level class feats for Druid multiclass. That would give me full Primal spellcasting up to 3rd level spells and a Druid feat or a focus spell like goodberry or tempest surge. But then at level 8, I still qualify for Warden's Boon (an 8th level Ranger feat) which lets me give the party's Fighter the benefits of Flurry. And at 10th level I can still take Warden's Step or Twin Riposte.
| breithauptclan |
Like several other people have mentioned, Summoner multiclass is a bit tricky because the multiclass doesn't give you Act Together. Personally I think it works fine as long as you also take Meld Into Eidolon and treat it more as a really fancy always-available battle form ability. Similar to if you multiclass as a Druid and get the Wild Shape focus spell.
An Animal Companion from Beastmaster would be mechanically better for the second combatant type of idea.
| Mathmuse |
So do any of you have any experiences you can share with me along the above selection please?
My experience is from watching my wife's rogue/sorcerer in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign.
Sam started as a halfling rogue with Twilight heritage, Animal Whisperer background, and Scoundrel racket. His backstory was that he had escaped from a laboratory in Nidal where the owner had been conducting unnatural experiments on his halfling slaves. Sam had been infused with red dragon blood and at 2nd level would develop a Draconic bloodline via Sorcerer Dedication. Sam had Cha 18 due to the Scoundrel racket, so qualified for Sorcerer Dedication.
Rogues gain a class feat at 1st level, but Sorcerer Dedication is feat 2, so San took the rogue feat Trapfinder, instead. He also learned the Arcane Sense skill feat for his first magic, the Detect Magic cantrip. Sam's Dexterity was better than his Strength, so he fought with a shortbow.
At 2nd level he took Sorcerer Dedication. That granted him two arcane cantrips, Produce Flame and Telekinetic Projectile. Telekinetic Projectile dealt 1d6+4 damage, a tiny bit better than a shortbow plus sneak attack damage, and he had ++8 to hit with the spell versus +7 to hit with the bow, so he stopped using the shortbow. Rogues deal sneak attack damage with Strikes not Cast a Spell, so he gave up sneak attacks for 2nd and 3rd level, especially because the damage from Telekinetic Projectile increased to 2d6+4.
At 4th level, he took Magical Trickster rogue feat 4. This let Sam deal sneak attack damage with his spells against flat-footed opponents.
At 5th level, he gained expert proficiency in simple weapons and unarmed attacks, as well as the rapier, sap, shortbow, and shortsword. And his sneak attack damage increased to 2d6, so a Telekinetic Projectile would deal 3d6+4 piercing damage plus 2d6 precision damage to a flat-footed opponent.
At 6th level he took Basic Bloodline Spell sorcerer archetype feat 4 to gain Dragon Claws focus spell. The claws are a finesse unarmed attack that deals 1d4 slashing damage and 1d6 fire damage. Thus, Sam had expert proficiency in claws and could Strike with them while flanking for sneak attack damage. They provided a good alternative to his cantrips during heavy combat.
That determined his personal combat style: attack with cantrips from 30 feet away and manifest dragon claws in melee. That has the advantage of making him look unarmed, with his glamored armor disguised as street clothes. Meanwhile, with a rogue's skill increase and skill feat every level, Sam became extremely proficient at Acrobatics, Arcana, Deception, Diplomacy, and Society. He could use his Deception to detect lies, so villains could never fool the party. He wields a silver tongue like a classic Scoundrel rogue. (The other Charismatic character in the party, a leshy fey-blooded socerer, is just as persuasive.)
His class/archetype feats up to his current level are 1st level Trapsmith rogue feat, 2nd level Sorcerer Dedication archetype feat, 4th level Magical Trickster rogue feat, 6th level Basic Bloodline Spell (Dragon Claws) archetype feat, 8th level Blind-Fight rogue feat, 10th level Tactical Debilitations rogue feat, and 12th level Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting archetype feat. That is 4 rogue feats and 3 sorcerer multiclass archetype feats.
Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting gives Sam one 1st-level, one 2nd-level, and one 3rd-level spell slot, which is quite feeble given that the leshy sorcerer has three spell slots of each spell level up to 6th level. My wife is more interested in the bloodline than the spells, but Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting is a prerequisite to Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting. She wants that feat at 14th level to give Sam expert proficiency in spell attacks. It will also give him one 4th-level and one 5th-level spell slot, with a 6th-level spell slot appearing at 16th level.
My wife chose to mix rogue and sorcerer together to play a Magical Trickster. But single classes are highly customizable, too. Dogfax need not worry that a straight class gives a character stuck using a one-dimensional mechanic over and over again. Most PCs in my party have more than one combat tactic, such as the ranger using a longbow at range, twin kukris in melee, and a focus spell to entangle.