I currently DM a game of Age of Ashes for my group of friends and I noticed a little problem with:
According to the rules, a creature must spend one action every turn to Fly or they'll fall on the ground: "If you’re airborne at the end of your turn and didn’t use a Fly action this round, you fall.". (https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=94)
However, the Vrock's Dance of Ruin (https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=100) takes three actions every turn, which prevents the creature from using an action to Fly. Unfortunately, there are no mentions, in the ability, that it compensates somehow for the missing Fly action, except to say that it "dances in flight".
I imagine this could be a recurring issue with any flying creature that have 3 actions abilities (even more so casters that are flying), but potentially also a similar problem with swimming creatures.
Is that a voluntary situation, or something no one thought about?
Shouldn't staying 'steady' (same square/cube) be at least a free action? This would fix all problems.
Hopefully you can help me with this situation.
Thanks,
Wallemest
You might want to edit your thread title to say "minor AoA spoiler" so that people know in ADVANCE what risks being spoiled. Readers can't really make an informed choice without all the information. By the time they've clicked the thread and seen what adventure spoiler is even FOR, you've already gone and spoiled it.
I had my vrocks land before beginning dance of ruin. Though, had someone pointed out to me the dance in flight verbiage, I would happily have kept them aloft despite having taken a three action activity.
In a general sense, it is NOT a mistake. It is one if the primary balancing factors of flight in 2e. In the specific case of a vrock's dance if ruin though, it may well have been.
You might want to edit your thread title to say "minor AoA spoiler" so that people know in ADVANCE what risks being spoiled. Readers can't really make an informed choice without all the information. By the time they've clicked the thread and seen what adventure spoiler is even FOR, you've already gone and spoiled it.
I had my vrocks land before beginning dance of ruin. Though, had someone pointed out to me the dance in flight verbiage, I would happily have kept them aloft despite having taken a three action activity.
In a general sense, it is NOT a mistake. It is one if the primary balancing factors of flight in 2e. In the specific case of a vrock's dance if ruin though, it may well have been.
Thank you for your suggestions. It was my first post ever on this forum and didn't quite know how to do it correctly. It seems I cannot Edit my post, however. (I looked everywhere and couldn't find the Edit button anymore... Maybe because the thread was answered?)
Thank you as well for your opinion on the matter. I do understand the need for balance. However, wouldn't it seem strange that all flying creatures can never perform 3 action activities unless they are on the ground? A creature with a natural flight, for example an angel, should be able to perform such activities.
Hopefully, Paizo can give us an official answer on the subject.
Thanks again for your help!
You might want to edit your thread title to say "minor AoA spoiler" so that people know in ADVANCE what risks being spoiled. Readers can't really make an informed choice without all the information. By the time they've clicked the thread and seen what adventure spoiler is even FOR, you've already gone and spoiled it.
I had my vrocks land before beginning dance of ruin. Though, had someone pointed out to me the dance in flight verbiage, I would happily have kept them aloft despite having taken a three action activity.
In a general sense, it is NOT a mistake. It is one if the primary balancing factors of flight in 2e. In the specific case of a vrock's dance if ruin though, it may well have been.
Thank you for your suggestions. It was my first post ever on this forum and didn't quite know how to do it correctly. It seems I cannot Edit my post, however. (I looked everywhere and couldn't find the Edit button anymore... Maybe because the thread was answered?)
Thank you as well for your opinion on the matter. I do understand the need for balance. However, wouldn't it seem strange that all flying creatures can never perform 3 action activities unless they are on the ground? A creature with a natural flight, for example an angel, should be able to perform such activities.
Hopefully, Paizo can give us an official answer on the subject.
Thanks again for your help!
How many flying creatures have 3 action activities to perform though? I don't think there are very many.
How many flying creatures have 3 action activities to perform though? I don't think there are very many.
Well, there are still a couple of them. All of the Angels (I believe) have Heal, which does have a three action version. A succubus has a special 3 action activity. Spellcasting dragons have Heal, Blade Barrier, and perhaps other spells. Some flying creatures have Obscuring Mist, Wind Wall… I think there are enough possibilities to ask the question.
Also, does it mean you can’t fly while casting a spell with a longer casting time? (Like 1 minute) Or what happens in the Plane of Air?
One way or another, it would be interesting to know the answer from Paizo.
One way or another, it would be interesting to know the answer from Paizo.
I am sorry to say that official responses are really few and far between and you are almost certainly not going to get one. And even if they did respond, they usually cite RAW and then decide on an errata later, maybe. PF2e has been poor when it comes to errata support/consistency.
As for the general rule, yup RAW is RAW in this case, yes that limits creatures that have access to 3 action skills and innate flight. Although that is fine from a balance and narrative perspective.
In the case of the Vrock, the descriptive text says it dances in flight, so I would probably assume it should count as a fly action in this case and just rule it differently. (It even has the move trait)
For spells that use 3 actions, there is no indication to RAI suggesting the creature doesn't need to be grounded to cast it.
|
I think it's intentional. The dance of ruin is supposed to be something that forces the party to decide to either run away or try to put a stop to it. Letting the vrock play keep-away would undermine how the monster is supposed to play out.
Of course if you're feeling mean, you can cast Haste on your vrocks..
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One way or another, it would be interesting to know the answer from Paizo.I am sorry to say that official responses are really few and far between and you are almost certainly not going to get one. And even if they did respond, they usually cite RAW and then decide on an errata later, maybe. PF2e has been poor when it comes to errata support/consistency.
Definitely.
As for the general rule, yup RAW is RAW in this case, yes that limits creatures that have access to 3 action skills and innate flight. Although that is fine from a balance and narrative perspective.
In the case of the Vrock, the descriptive text says it dances in flight, so I would probably assume it should count as a fly action in this case and just rule it differently. (It even has the move trait)
For spells that use 3 actions, there is no indication to RAI suggesting the creature doesn't need to be grounded to cast it.
Since the Vrock is listing the ability as being used 'in flight', I would think that it would have a 0-foot fly action as a subordinate action. That would keep it in the air, while also preventing it from being able to kite and/or chase the party while using it - which is the entire point of having it take 3 actions to cast.
But that is just my intuitive RAI understanding of how it should work. RAW would indicate that the creatures could only use the ability on the ground or if they decide to fall out of the sky afterwards.
Also, strict RAW - Haste wouldn't help since the spell only allows the extra action to be used for Stride and Strike. Fly isn't on the list.
Of course if you're feeling mean, you can cast Haste on your vrocks..
Haste doesn't give you an extra action, just a strike or stride.
Thank you for your suggestions. It was my first post ever on this forum and didn't quite know how to do it correctly. It seems I cannot Edit my post, however. (I looked everywhere and couldn't find the Edit button anymore... Maybe because the thread was answered?)
Welcome to the posters club!
Posts can be edited up to 1 hour after they're made. After that, it locks you out.
You still might be able to get a Support representative to edit it after the fact, but they keep pretty busy. If you Flag your own post, there's an option for "Needs spoiler" you can select that might prompt such action from the staff as well.
I hope that helps. :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since the Vrock is listing the ability as being used 'in flight', I would think that it would have a 0-foot fly action as a subordinate action. That would keep it in the air, while also preventing it from being able to kite and/or chase the party while using it - which is the entire point of having it take 3 actions to cast.
But that is just my intuitive RAI understanding of how it should work. RAW would indicate that the creatures could only use the ability on the ground or if they decide to fall out of the sky afterwards.
Interesting find. Yeah, the ability says "in flight", making you wonder if it can even be used if you're not flying. Also, it has the Move trait.
I think interpreting as "must fly and then fall" comes under the heading then of Too Bad To Be True, and a different reading is required. I think stationary (but required) flight may be the best reading.
Flight isn't as useful in this Edition.
It is just as useful as before, just coming at a greater cost.
Now, air walk, that is a fun one.
I have run combats for my players where airwalk's lack of needing an action to stay in the air was a huge advantage, and also when only being able to descend at 45 degree angles was a massive disadvantage.
The latter occurring when fighting something with flight.
Shouldn't staying 'steady' (same square/cube) be at least a free action? This would fix all problems.That's called "Hover", and it takes an action.
It is actually part of the Fly action. You just Fly to move 0 feet.
At least it doesn't take a skill check to hover like it does in Starfinder.
At least it doesn't take a skill check to hover like it does in Starfinder.
Actually, that part is unclear in the rules.
"Expert fly against the wind, hover midair"