Devise A Stratagem Question about how substituting in INT modifier impacts Clumsy and Quicksilver Mutagen

[Jakers]

I have questions around how substituting in INT mod in Devise A Stratagem from the Investigator class impacts the bonuses and penalties used in the Attack Roll.

If an Investigator is Clumsy 1 and decides to strike with a DEX weapon against an enemy they've Devise A Stratagem against on this round and substitute in their INT modifier does the resulting Attack Roll get impacted by Clumsy 1 or since the substitution occurs does that mean Clumsy 1 applies still?

Similarly same scenario as before but the investigator is Stupefied 1 instead of Clumsy 1 does Stupefied apply?

Lastly if the investigator is under the effects of Quicksilver Mutagen (Lesser) and does the INT mod substitution does the item bonus from Quicksilver Mutagen still apply since the Attack Rolls ability mod is substituted for INT and may no longer meet the DEX based Attack Roll definition?

I couldn't find any clear rules for how ability mod substitutions like these are processed order of operations wise. But I'm leaning towards that subbing in INT makes Stupefied 1 apply and not Clumsy 1. Similarly Quicksilver Mutagen (Lesser) item bonus would not apply.

Does anyone have any ideas or insights into how the substitution process works in more detail?

[breithauptclan]

Hmm... These are really good questions.

The Clumsy condition says that it applies to all DEX checks and DCs. The examples that it gives don't list melee attacks with a finesse weapon, but the list can be (and probably should be) considered to be examples, not an exhaustive list of all DEX checks.

But melee attacks are generally STR checks. The only reason that it would be a DEX check is because you are using your DEX on the check. So if you are not using DEX on the check, is it still even a DEX check any more?

You can use Devise a Strategem using a weapon that only has the agile trait - at that point DEX never factors into this at all and clumsy clearly shouldn't apply. And since even with a finesse weapon, you are not required to use DEX for the attack roll, and Devise a Strategem only requires that the weapon has finesse (not that you actually use DEX on the attack), it can be argued that you are still using STR on the attack with the finesse weapon and then doing the INT substitution from Devise a Strategem.

So yeah, I can be convinced that clumsy wouldn't apply to the attack after doing the INT substitution from Devise a Stratagem.

On the other hand, if your INT has been lowered, it would apply to anything that uses your INT. So Stupefied would apply after Devise a Strategem and INT substitution - though you don't have to do the INT substitution as part of the attack. You can simply pre-roll and continue to add STR or DEX as normal. Even with weapons that would qualify for the INT substitution.

And finally, you can't have it both ways. The DEX bonus from Quicksilver Mutagen wouldn't apply to the attack roll after Devise a Stratagem and doing the INT substitution. (If you wanted to have your table rule that since the check is normally a DEX check that the DEX bonus would apply to the check itself even after the INT substitution, that is reasonable - but only if that ruling is applied consistently and clumsy also applies to the attack roll after INT substitution.)