General bite attack question.

[CapeCodRPGer]

So for my first Pathfinder 2nd edition character, I made a razoetooth goblin barbarian. I chose animal instict wolf to get 1D10 damage on bite when I rage instead of 1D6.

The razortooth goblin bite attack says its part of the brawling group and has the finesse and unarmed traits.

When I rage, is the bite attack still considered brawling, and have finesse and unarmed traits since its the same type of attack?

[breithauptclan]

It is a bit strange from a narrative and descriptive point of view. But you actually end up with two different and separate bite attacks.

Since the Barbarian Rage gains the Morph trait with Animal Instinct, I would say that while raging, your Wolf bite attack replaces your Goblin bite attack - so you couldn't ever use both at the same time.

To be complete:

Your Goblin Bite attack does 1d6 piercing damage, is in the Brawling group, and has the finesse and unarmed traits.

Your Wolf Barbarian Bite attack does 1d10 piercing damage, is in the Brawling group, and has the trip and unarmed traits. But it doesn't have the finesse trait.

[CapeCodRPGer]

I understand why I couldn't use them at same time. Thanks for the clarification. I just thought since it was same type of attack it could have the same traits. But that makes sense.

[Super Zero]

Since your barbarian is presumably a strength-based character, and will want to rage most of the time they get into a fight, Razortooth might not do too much for you. Your wolf bite is better than your goblin bite.

breithauptclan wrote:

It is a bit strange from a narrative and descriptive point of view. But you actually end up with two different and separate bite attacks.

Not really. Having more than one way to attack with the same thing is realistic.

So this goblin can either do a more careful, precise bit or a more powerful lunging one. That makes sense.

[Mad Dog Mike]

Since the barbarian animal instinct attacks don't have the language a lot of monk styles have saying "you can only use this attack", I would say you would be able to use either attack you wanted to. Normally you would want to do the Wolf Bite thanks to the better damage and trip trait, but you might want the natural attack in cases where you can't rage or for use with goblin ancestry feats like Fang Sharpener (for persistent bleed damage) or Ankle Bite, which I presume have to use the normal racial bite rather than the Wolf Bite attack. And honestly, it's just so appropriate to the theme, who could resist a fangy Animal Instinct barbarian goblin even if it isn't "optimized"?

[breithauptclan]

Mad Dog Mike wrote:

Since the barbarian animal instinct attacks don't have the language a lot of monk styles have saying "you can only use this attack", I would say you would be able to use either attack you wanted to.

That is certainly a valid ruling. The argument against it is the Morph trait on the Animal Instinct Rage.

If it was a different animal instinct, one that used a different body part, then there would certainly be no conflict. You could use both your Goblin bite and a Bull Instinct horn attack at the same time, for example. And it does seem strange to mechanically penalize a character because of a choice made for flavor purposes.

[HumbleGamer]

I think it's the difference between morph and polymorph.

While you can only have a single effect which can be either morph or polymormph, the former doesn't entirely transform you.

So, for example, it may give you a tongue attack while maintaining the bite attack. Same goes for the antler horns, gorilla fist, and so on.

I wouldn't dig that deep with morph stuff, but just stick with the difference between morph and polymorph.

[breithauptclan]

Morph does work like Polymorph when you are targeting the same body part though.

Morph trait wrote:

You can be affected by multiple morph spells at once, but if you morph the same body part more than once, the second morph effect attempts to counteract the first (in the same manner as two polymorph effects, described in that trait).

But since the Razortooth Goblin bite attack isn't a Morph effect, there technically isn't any mechanical rule saying that they conflict.

But it does (gut-instinct, flavor, lore, description) feel like they should. You are transforming your face. Shouldn't you lose your existing bite attack in the process of getting a new one?

[HumbleGamer]

breithauptclan wrote:

Morph does work like Polymorph when you are targeting the same body part though.

Morph trait wrote:

You can be affected by multiple morph spells at once, but if you morph the same body part more than once, the second morph effect attempts to counteract the first (in the same manner as two polymorph effects, described in that trait).

But since the Razortooth Goblin bite attack isn't a Morph effect, there technically isn't any mechanical rule saying that they conflict.

It's what I said.

A given unarmed attack ( ancestry/heritage ) would not disappear if a morph feature kicks in.

What a player could do is to wonder whether the shark bite attack would suppress the goblin razortooth bite, but that's it. Given the fact it would be something very limited I wouldn't give it much credit and stick with general interpretations ( morph = addition / Polymoprh = total body change ).

I doubt we'll ever see a razortooth goblin which has a finesse bite weapon taking the

-Barbarian
-Animal Instinct
-Shark instinct

replacing his jaws ( assuming he's going with the finesse stat ) with the shark one.

But if this is going to happen, the character would probably go with the shark attack ( since he deliberately choose barbarian, animal instinct, shark ). And he's going to be a STR based character rather than a DEX based one.

So no issues here too ( unless the player itselft deliberately searches for them ).