Hi, i pull this combo on a game when having a friendly spar with the swashbuckler pc of a friend (my character being a Rogue thief with monk dedication). in the moment nobody questioned it since it felt right and it was cool as hell
but then i question myself if that was actually possible rule-wise
so, i look around the rules, but i'm still not sure if it's possible or not so i'm asking here, is it possible to combine ki rush with thumble behind all in the same action?
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[quote:Tumble Through]CRB.p 240
You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy’s Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space. You can Tumble Through using Climb, Fly, Swim, or another action instead of Stride in the appropriate environment.
For me as a GM the Ki-rush would qualify as another action instead of Stride.
It is limited in its use, not overpowered, Ki-rush is purely move and not a combined activity which includes move and another action. And as you said - it was cool as hell.
I therefore see the rules give me enough leeway to allow it. But expect a lot of GMs to rule otherwise.
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No. Tumble through isn't listed in Ki Rush.
It is more the other way round: Ki rush isn't listed in Tumble Through only Stride, climb, fly and swim are explicitly listed.
But that leads to the interesting question:
Does an imp in a 5 foot corridor block a 20th level rogue to pass?
Off course not - he just tumbles past.
Does a 5 foot wide gap blocks a 20th level rogue to pass?
Off course not - he jumps/leaps across.
Now combine the two. Unless you allow jump/leap as 'another action instead of stride in the appropriate environment' then you have created an impossible to pass blockage - unless you kill that imp or otherwise move him out of the way.
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Tumble Through mentions "other action" in case you have a special type of movement where the environment matters. They didn't want to only specify the current movement types in case new ones were created later.
That said, Ki Rush specifically says you Stride or Step. Tumble Through specifically says you Stride or use a different form of movement. Ki Rush is not a different form of movement, it's a spell.
Therefore you can not Ki Rush as part of a Tumble Through action, and you can not Tumble Through as part of Ki Rush.
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With the way that the rules are written - with Tumble Through being its own action that uses a Stride action as part of it: no it doesn't work to combine with Ki Rush.
With a more intuitive, narrative way of thinking of things - tumbling through an enemy's space is more of a modification of the Stride action rather than being its own action. With that way of thinking of things, the yeah, it makes perfect sense to be able to Ki Rush and tumble through an enemy's space.
So RAW no, but I would allow it anyway.
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@Kordell so in this do you rule the imp flying above a 5 feet wide pit block 100% a PC (unless the PC can fly).
If not - how do you get past by RAW?
Leap and Jump are not stride either. But to me both seem the appropriate action for the environment - crossing a pit.
Why does it say ‚instead of stride‘ if such an action doesn’t exist.
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@Kordell so in this do you rule the imp flying above a 5 feet wide pit block 100% a PC (unless the PC can fly).
If not - how do you get past by RAW?
Leap and Jump are not stride either. But to me both seem the appropriate action for the environment - crossing a pit.
Why does it say ‚instead of stride‘ if such an action doesn’t exist.
Imps are Tiny so you can freely move through their space.
Long Jump includes the Stride action in the Activity.
Leap allows you to jump 10 feet without a check.
So you could either perform a Long Jump or just Stride and Leap. The Imp imposes no barrier because of its size.
Now if you had a Medium creature in the way, you would need a Fly or Climb speed to be able to Tumble Through them. Kinda hard to perform acrobatic maneuvers when you're free flying through the air with no control over your movement...
@Kordell so in this do you rule the imp flying above a 5 feet wide pit block 100% a PC (unless the PS can fly).
If not - how do you get past by RAW?
Leap and Jump are not stride either. But to me both seem the appropriate action for the environment - crossing a pit.
Um. I'm not the one you are replying to, but I don't quite get what you are asking.
Are you implying that Ki Rush allows you to leap?
Are you implying that you can't use Leap with Tumble Through to bypass a hovering enemy over a pit? Because you can, it's noted in Tumble Through that you can use a different action in the appropriate environment. So when appropriate, you can use the "movement type" that is Leap to Tumble Through.
Know what you can't do though? Use the "Focus Spell" Ki Rush to Tumble Through.
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I should have replaced imp with mephit - my mistake.
Here is a nice one:
Small alleyway - 5 foot wide - cobble stones. A thug in the way.
Swashbuckler: I tumble past
GM:that is cobble stone. Uneven surface. Sorry - you can’t stride here. It is Balance. Oh it’s easy - just DC 5 but shuts down tumble through.
I should have replaced imp with mephit - my mistake.
Here is a nice one:
Small alleyway - 5 foot wide - cobble stones. A thug in the way.Swashbuckler: I tumble past
GM:that is cobble stone. Uneven surface. Sorry - you can’t stride here. It is Balance. Oh it’s easy - just DC 5 but shuts down tumble through.
Also actually doesn't bypassshut down Tumble Through, because the GM has already admitted that, in this Very specific and straw filled example, Balance is an appropriate action for Tumble Through in this environment.
You can Tumble Through using Climb, Fly, Swim, or another action instead of Stride in the appropriate environment.
Ki Rush produces the effect of which is "Move two times" which is further clarified as a cobination of two specific movenent actions: Stride and Step.
Regardless of anything Tumble Through says, it is not one of the actions explicitly listed in the Ki Rush effect. Neither are Crawl, Drop Prone, Leap, Mount, nor Stand.
Sincce Tumble Through is not explicitly listed in the Move Actions generated as the effect of the Ki Rush spell, it is implicitly proscribed.
With the way that the rules are written - with Tumble Through being its own action that uses a Stride action as part of it: no it doesn't work to combine with Ki Rush.
With a more intuitive, narrative way of thinking of things - tumbling through an enemy's space is more of a modification of the Stride action rather than being its own action. With that way of thinking of things, the yeah, it makes perfect sense to be able to Ki Rush and tumble through an enemy's space.
So RAW no, but I would allow it anyway.
That's about where I'm at. I use similar rule of cool stuff to combine a lot of monk actions, like Ki Rush/Wind Jump, or Wall Run/Flying Kick.
Now I'm imagining a Will O' Wisp that floats invisibly over a pit, waiting for travelers to make the "easy" leap over it.
Add quicksand, other predators, and so forth as needed, yet not enough to trigger suspicion. Heck, maybe the pit's one of many similar pits travelers would have leapt over by then. :) :)
Hey his thanks a lot for the clarifications!
Both my dm and I decided to allow it as a rule of cool since it cant be abused and since it was under a particular circumstance, in general i wont use it that often