Spirit Link and Temporary Hit Points


Rules Discussion


Hi there,

A rule questions that came up during a discussion with my group, and we couldn't find a clear ruling.

Spirit Link (https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=302) says that it ignores the temporary Hit Points of the caster. What happens then, when the caster has temp HP, reaches 0 Hit Points through Spirit Link (and the spell stops there), but still has a pool of temp hp remaining, does he fall unconscious ?

This seems to be the only way to have permanent hit points depleted before temporary hit points, and there doesn't seem to be a clear rule for this case, or we just didn't find it.


Seems that temporary hp work like some sort of shield, but not real hp

Spirit link says

Quote:
You can Dismiss this spell, and if you're ever at 0 Hit Points, spirit link ends automatically.

and the dying condition says

Quote:
You immediately move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP.”

-

I agree that it's the only case this could happen ( and fortunately, it's more than a niche one ), but I'd say no hp, no game.


Tl: dr: At zero normal hit points, Spirit Link ends since its transfer "ignores any temporary Hit Points". But since you have temp hit points, you have hit points and are conscious. You're not forced to ignore those yourself simply because of Spirit Link.
Imagine if you have a person at zero h.p. some temp hit points (and found some way to make them conscious too). They'd be able to act normally and wouldn't have issues until they ran out of those temp h.p. even though they have no normal hit points.

---

IMO temporary hit points are still hit points, so you'd be conscious, and not at 0 h.p. because you have those temp hit points.
Unfortunately this leads to the conundrum of what occurs afterward since the spell wouldn't end, yet wouldn't function either so then we have to back up a step.

Seemingly the temp hit point ban is to prevent converting temp hit points into real hit points and was considered separately from the zero hit point cessation of the spell. In that light I'd say Spirit Link ends when you have zero regular hit points to interact with the spell because those are the only hit points that matter to the spell. Yet you wouldn't be unconscious because you still have the temporary hit points. I can't discern any odd loopholes or such.

Horizon Hunters

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I agree that temp hp doesn't help you stay conscious. It's not like casting False Life on someone with 0hp would make them conscious, so why would it help you in this case?


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Flavor-wise: do whatever you want. It could be interesting to say they're alive on borrowed time, and once the temp HP goes out they start dying, or perhaps even some weird mix of conscious and dying, where you have to make rolls to stabilize but can still fight.

Rules-wise: Temp HP ≠ HP, and so you would start dying when you hit 0 HP. I understand that the words are similar, but they're clearly different and are always tracked separately.
The proof of this is in the ability itself and how it's worded in comparison to the knocked out and dying rules:

Spirit Link wrote:
You can Dismiss this spell, and if you're ever at 0 Hit Points, spirit link ends automatically.

vs

Knocked out and Dying wrote:
As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you’re knocked out with the following effects:

The wording is functionally identical, and so either they both trigger or neither does, so our options are:

1. You don't get knocked out at 0 HP as long as you have temp HP. This means that the spell also doesn't end in that scenario. Buuuut negative HP isn't a thing in PF2, and the spell ignores temp HP, so you'll keep restoring HP to the target at no cost.
2. You get knocked out when you're at 0 HP even if you have temp HP. This also means the spell ends at that time, which is good, because if it didn't it would start counting against your dying condition every time it dealt damage to you.

Now, one thing that does actually appear to be unclear as far as I can tell is what happens to these temp HP when you're unconscious. Nothing in the Temp HP rules seems to indicate that they go away when you drop, so I'd say if you get back up into the fight, then you'll still have the Temp HP. In fact, I'd even say that if something would injure you while you're down it would first go towards your temp HP, and only if it got through that would it increase your dying condition, but I can see GMs ruling one or both of those odd edge-cases differently.

Liberty's Edge

Temp HP are a buffer against damage. All other rules dealing with HP do not take them into account. And Spirit Link is an exception to the rule of temp HP being a buffer against damage.

Horizon Hunters

Another exception to Temp HP is the Drained condition. It lowers your current and max HP and is explicitly not damage, so Temp HP wouldn't help stop it.

Grand Lodge

Cordell Kintner wrote:
I agree that temp hp doesn't help you stay conscious. It's not like casting False Life on someone with 0hp would make them conscious, so why would it help you in this case?

It would not make them conscious as the rules say that you need HP gained via healing to regain consciousness - but it would prevent you from getting the dying condition if you have persistent fire 1 until the temp hp are gone.

So False Life doesn't remove a condition - but it is still capable to keep you from gaining a new condition (in this case dying). So I would see the False Life example at best as a 'can go either way' argument.

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