Magical Trickster / Spell attacks while hidden

[LarsC]

Hi!

I have done a few searches about this on the forum, and I'm not seeing this discussed elsewhere, so I thought it might make sense to start a new thread.

TLDR version: If a rogue with the Magical Trickster feat makes a spell attack while hidden, do they get to apply sneak attack damage?

RAW, it seems like the answer is no. The rules for hiding state "If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise."

The GM fiat element here muddies the waters a bit, but I can't see anything that suggests that a spell attack can go off before the spellcaster becomes observed.

My editorial opinion is that this makes Magical Trickster more situationally useful (and more to the point, the Eldritch Trickster racket weaker overall).

I can feel in my bones that this will be errata'd. Do you think this is right, or is there some unseen power in the Eldritch Trickster racket that I'm ignoring? Or is the GM fiat element in the Hidden rules meant to step in and take care of this situation.

What do you think? Thanks!

- Lars

[HammerJack]

No, you aren't missing a rule that makes Hiding and then Casting a viable way to use Magical Trickster. You need to get your flat-footed targets some other way. At least some of the time, you may find that you need help from your allies to make that happen. (Of course, people that want to win the fight should be considering that sort of thing when choosing their actions with ANY rogue in the party, Magical Trickster or no).

[Aw3som3-117]

I think you're spot on with RAW. You become observed before hand unless the GM determines the casting of the spell is subtle enough to go off and only then give away your position. Well, assuming other things aren't in play, such as invisibility making you hidden anyway.

I'd also like to point out a couple things that are tangentially related to this question to hopefully make it seem a little less weird:
1. A lot of spells contain verbal components. Purposefully making noises tends to be pretty noticeable, so even if casting a spell doesn't inherently make you observed a lot of them probably would for that reason alone. Moreover, the existence of spell components is a great guideline for deciding what is and isn't able to be noticed while hidden, such as verbal components giving away your position while material and somatic don't, but might require an additional stealth check or something. Remember: the GM decides ≠ impossible / homebrew. The GM deciding IS the rules, and they're expected to actually make those calls based on what makes sense, not just handwave and say anything optional is an automatic fail.
2. It's important to note that being hidden is just one of many ways to gain the upper hand as a rogue. Flanking, feints, tripping, special abilities from you or your teammates, and I'm sure many more things that aren't immediately coming to mind are great ways to make enemies flat-footed to you.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Aw3som3-117 wrote:

...

2. It's important to note that being hidden is just one of many ways to gain the upper hand as a rogue. Flanking, feints, tripping, special abilities from you or your teammates, and I'm sure many more things that aren't immediately coming to mind are great ways to make enemies flat-footed to you.

When discussing 'hidden' there is a general presumption the conversation is about ranged attacks since hidden doesn't work well for melee attacks (spell, weapon, or unarmed) without appropriate magic (like invisibility) due to the cover/concealment requirement.

Once you limit yourself to ranged attacks, you've eliminated Flanking and Feinting as options and tripping isn't generally feasible unless a melee ally does it for you, requiring a degree of teamwork that may or may not be available (not every party will have a good athletics melee with a free hand, trip weapon, or specific knockdown feat build).

While there are other ways to make your ranged foe flat-footed, they generally aren't as

• Reliable (needing a successful skill check like stealth, intimidate, or recall knowledge just sucks some days),
• Repeatable (you only get so many uses of a Greater Cloak of Elvenkind),
• Common (not every party will have a 'Dirge of Doom' Bard), or
• Efficient (every action your allies spend setting up your Sneak Attack is one less action for them).

While there are options available, you'll need to work harder than most rogues to get your target flat-footed.