What do you think the DC to Force Open walls like the Kool-Aid Man would/should be? I'm thinking it should be very high level, but not impossible for walls that aren't super thick.
I'm thinking maybe DC 40-45, depending on materials and thickness. A heavily reinforced wall specifically designed to stop such threats might have a DC of 50-55
A 20th-level character could have...
20 level
08 legendary athletics
07 strength modifier
05 belt of giant strength
==
40 to Force Open
So it would be near-automatic for such a character, but someone of lower level there would have a decreasing chance of success (but still well within range of anyone say, 15th-level or higher).
I wonder what the DC would be for bursting through a wall of force?
I would definitely gate it on proficiency. Not just DC. I also think that there should be an expectation among players and GM that the players shouldn't be expecting that they can just go through any wall that they feel like. So some, maybe even many, walls should simply require more than Legendary proficiency in Athletics in order to Force Open. At least not without proper tools and plenty of time.
But if the GM and players are all on-board with having a character come blasting through a wall, certainly set an achievable proficiency rating and DC for it. There are the tables that set DC that can be used for that. It will end up being dependent on campaign, GM, and wall item level. So I can't really set a proficiency level and DC for it here.
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I wonder what the DC would be for bursting through a wall of force?
Allow the character to make a Counteract check using their Athletics skill.
I would definitely gate it on proficiency. Not just DC.
That's a good idea.
What level is Kool Aid Man?
But yeah, this kind of stuff is iffy, which is why many of the PF1 rules for PC interaction w/ objects & set pieces were altered; it had been too easy to break one's way through a dungeon, especially with an adamantine hammer/pick/etc. Can't bypass the room's trap? Bypass the room itself.
Except PF2 also flat out calls PCs Legendary and has some other extraordinary exploits on par with wall breaking. Should there be a feat, perhaps a Legendary Athletics feat, for such deeds? Dunno.
In the end, I'd look at the narrative primarily.
Is the wall meant to hem in the PCs and control their flow through the dungeon? (To the story's benefit, not merely to play god.) Or did a peon Wizard toss it up to slow them down and no peon's going to slow them down(!)? Of course, then why isn't the player simply doing hit point damage instead which there are rules for? Maybe such things weren't meant to have a break DC (though even Gygax, in his novels, had avatars that could shatter Walls of Force rather than merely strike.)
What do you think the DC to Force Open walls like the Kool-Aid Man would/should be? I'm thinking it should be very high level, but not impossible for walls that aren't super thick.
I'm thinking maybe DC 40-45, depending on materials and thickness. A heavily reinforced wall specifically designed to stop such threats might have a DC of 50-55
Untrained fabric, flimsy glass
Trained ice, sturdy glass
Expert flimsy wooden door, wooden portcullis
Master sturdy wooden door, iron portcullis, metal bar
Legendary stone or iron door
+
Table 10-6: DC Adjustments
Difficulty
Incredibly easy -10
Very easy -5
Easy -2
Hard +2
Very hard +5
Incredibly hard +10
So if you're charging through a stone door [Legendary, DC 40] made of magically strengthened rock [Incredibly hard, +10 DC] you end up with a DC 50 Force Open. Or if you try to run through an iron portcullis [Master, DC 30] that's badly rusted [Very easy, -5 DC] you end up with a DC 25. It's pretty easy with the only thing mildly difficult being sorting out the difficulty modifier if any.
PS: You can also modify the difficulty up or down depending on thickness of the barrier and/or for the material not being made to open [say a normal wall]. For instance a think ice wall might be a DC 25 (Trained 15 + 5 [thick] +5 [wall]).
...you attempt to forcefully open a door, window, container or heavy gate.
Force open allows you to open something, not bust through it. You don't smash through a steel portcullis, you are able to lift it despite being locked in place.
I wouldn't allow a PC to smash through a stone wall. Single layer of wood or similarly weak object, sure. But anything more sturdy I would say no.
A stone wall has a hardness of 14 and break threshold of 28. Meaning you need to do 42 hp of damage to "break" it. But how broken is it? does broken mean there is a hole big enough walk through? I think not. Probably more like a hole large enough to stick an arm or weapon through, or at best a hole to squeeze through.
TLDR; Force open is not designed for this and I would not allow it.
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Force open is not designed for this and I would not allow it.
Force Open:
You've got a fine house rule there, but smashing through walls is explicitly stated as being allowed within the Force Open text itself.
TLDR; Force open is not designed for this and I would not allow it.
Imagine not being able to smash through walls using Force Open?
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TLDR; Force open is not designed for this and I would not allow it.
As Ravingdork quoted, the skill action explicitly lists wall as a target: as such, the 'cool aid man' is 100% designed for it and an expected outcome of using it. The only thing that's a question is what "a high enough result" would be and I posted what I thought that would be [+5 to +10].
A stone wall has a hardness of 14 and break threshold of 28. Meaning you need to do 42 hp of damage to "break" it. But how broken is it? does broken mean there is a hole big enough walk through? I think not. Probably more like a hole large enough to stick an arm or weapon through, or at best a hole to squeeze through.
A Reinforced door is a hardness of 10 and a BT of 20 and the skill action lists a stone or iron door which would be stronger so we're looking at similar numbers to that stone wall. As to what broken means, it's that the wall is standing but someone can move through that section. "A broken object can't be used for its normal function" so that'd mean that the walls function of keeping people in and/or keeping things in isn't functioning but it's still standing because it still has hp. Simply put, you make a cool-aid man sized hole through it. ;)
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I'd also require some explanatory narrative from the player. E.g. "I use my maul to blast through the wall".
I prefer "I ram through it with my Adamantine Armor/Shield" since adamantine weapons 1/2 hardness and you're using it as a weapon IMO. An Adamantine Maul works too I guess. ;)
I prefer "I casually walk through the wall and it gives way to my incredible power."
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"I shout 'OHHH YEAHHHHH' and the sonic damage weakens the wall's structural integrity."
"I shout 'OHHH YEAHHHHH' and the sonic damage weakens the wall's structural integrity."
"By the power of Grayskull!" or "Thundercats Ho!!!" *visual FX's optional*
Or you can always "Leeroy Jenkins!" through the wall to get to the monsters. ;)
Force open is not designed for this and I would not allow it.Force Open:
You've got a fine house rule there, but smashing through walls is explicitly stated as being allowed within the Force Open text itself.
Well, serves me right for not reading the whole rule.
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Well, serves me right for not reading the whole rule.Force open is not designed for this and I would not allow it.Force Open:
You've got a fine house rule there, but smashing through walls is explicitly stated as being allowed within the Force Open text itself.
Happens to me all the time (typically when I get excited about something and read too quickly). XD
what is the DC to Force Open walls?
42
what is the DC to Force Open walls?42
XD