I have a question regarding the height of the High Jump given these feats Sudden Leap vs Fantastic Leap vs Flamboyant Leap. How high?
Thank you for your feedback.
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They use the High Jump rules, they only let you lower the DC, not increase the height, except for Fantastic Leap which lets you high jump using the Long Jump scale. Feats like Powerful Leap let you jump higher.
Usual disclaimer that these are just my readings...
Sudden Leap is a specific activity. It basically lets you high jump as far as a long jump would, with the same DC calculation as long jump but a maximum height that's double your speed, I think.
Fantastic Leap is...really weird. It's still a specific activity, but nerfed and at a later level. High jump with it still lets you jump as far as a long jump of the same DC...but there's no language to calculate DC differently or extend maximum range, so you're stuck with DC 30 for 30 feet in the air. (Also can't leap with it, I guess because Rogues have more skill increases so they expect you to make the check??)
Flamboyant Leap works the same way Sudden Leap does. Keep in mind that the prerequisite feat, Flamboyant Athlete, lowers DCs for high jump by 10, so it's easier to make use of that doubled maximum range...or would be if Swashbucklers with Panache weren't so fast, anyway.
They use the High Jump rules, except Fantastic Leap which explicitly lets you High Jump the same distance that you can Long Jump. Feats like Powerful Leap let you jump higher.
If I've got it right, Sudden and Flamboyant use the long jump rules for determining DC and height, because both types of jumps get to set DC to how far they go and also have how far they can go set to an extended value. Fantastic is the odd one out because it doesn't let you set DC like a long jump, not because it extends how far you jump. I also don't think Powerful Leap actually does anything for high jumps when using these feats, because the normal effects are overridden.
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Links for those interested: High Jump, Long Jump, Sudden Leap, Fantastic Leap, and Flamboyant Leap
Usual disclaimer that these are just my readings...
I think you have RAW correct. At least for the most part.
There are some RAI interpretations that could be argued though.
Sudden Leap is a specific activity. It basically lets you high jump as far as a long jump would, with the same DC calculation as long jump but a maximum height that's double your speed, I think.
Yes. So assuming character speed of 25 ft: DC 15 to high jump 15 ft. DC 40 to high jump 40 ft. DC 50 to high jump 50 ft.
Though considering that the requirement for high jump to stride 10 ft before the jump hasn't been removed, the GM may or may not have that be part of the total distance limit of the action. If so, then after the 10 ft stride has been removed, you would only have 40 ft maximum left for the jump distance.
Fantastic Leap is...really weird. It's still a specific activity, but nerfed and at a later level. High jump with it still lets you jump as far as a long jump of the same DC...but there's no language to calculate DC differently or extend maximum range, so you're stuck with DC 30 for 30 feet in the air. (Also can't leap with it, I guess because Rogues have more skill increases so they expect you to make the check??)
RAI (at least) I feel like this is a difference in the style of the author writing the rule. Because Long Jump itself has the method of setting the DC according to the distance jumped, the line 'If you attempt a High Jump, determine the distance you can travel using the scale of a Long Jump' feels like it is doing the same thing that the other two feats do. You still have the option of DC 15 for a 15 ft jump for example. It doesn't have the explicit language to set the DC that way, but it is implied because of the reference to the Long Jump rule that does have that explicit language in it.
This action says that you can only make the strike at the end of your jump, but the others say that you end your jump after making the strike even if you have more movement that you qualify for. That is effectively identical even though the language is different.
Fantastic Leap is lacking the rule change that lets you leap up to twice your movement speed though.
Flamboyant Leap works the same way Sudden Leap does. Keep in mind that the prerequisite feat, Flamboyant Athlete, lowers DCs for high jump by 10, so it's easier to make use of that doubled maximum range...or would be if Swashbucklers with Panache weren't so fast, anyway.
Yes, this feat reads identical to Sudden Leap as far as the movement and leap are concerned.
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Flamboyant Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Flamboyant Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase the maximum distance to double your Speed, rather than just your Speed."
Sudden Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase your maximum distance to double your Speed."
Where does this say you increase the height of the jump? It only mentions the DC. It's possible that the wording is wrong and the intent is to increase the height, but I don't see how you can interpret the current wording as increasing the height of the jump. High jump isn't like Long Jump, it's a static DC to increase the height of the jump, not a scale, so having something change the DCs wouldn't increase the height.
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Where does this say you increase the height of the jump? It only mentions the DC. It's possible that the wording is wrong and the intent is to increase the height, but I don't see how you can interpret the current wording as increasing the height of the jump. High jump isn't like Long Jump, it's a static DC to increase the height of the jump, not a scale, so having something change the DCs wouldn't increase the height.
Well, that is certainly one way to look at it.
At that point the entire purpose of the text 'If the distance you fall is no more than the height of your jump, you take no damage and land upright' is to prevent the possibility of taking damage from falling 8 feet on a critical success of the high jump.
And other than that, it wouldn't change anything about high jump at all. So why would high jump even be mentioned? It would be better to have the various leap feats only affect long jump at that point. The clarity of the rules would be more valuable than the minuscule improvement to the character's ability to high jump.
Flamboyant Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Flamboyant Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase the maximum distance to double your Speed, rather than just your Speed."
Sudden Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase your maximum distance to double your Speed."
Where does this say you increase the height of the jump? It only mentions the DC. It's possible that the wording is wrong and the intent is to increase the height, but I don't see how you can interpret the current wording as increasing the height of the jump. High jump isn't like Long Jump, it's a static DC to increase the height of the jump, not a scale, so having something change the DCs wouldn't increase the height.
Interesting. So by using that text what is the high jump DC given that I use the long jump DC?
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Flamboyant Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Flamboyant Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase the maximum distance to double your Speed, rather than just your Speed."
Sudden Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase your maximum distance to double your Speed."
Where does this say you increase the height of the jump? It only mentions the DC. It's possible that the wording is wrong and the intent is to increase the height, but I don't see how you can interpret the current wording as increasing the height of the jump. High jump isn't like Long Jump, it's a static DC to increase the height of the jump, not a scale, so having something change the DCs wouldn't increase the height.
Fixed your highlighting for you ;)
But seriously, if this line was meant to have literally no effect on a high jump, then why does it mention high jumps? And if it is supposed to have an effect on high jumps, then can you please explain what that effect might be?
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Flamboyant Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Flamboyant Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase the maximum distance to double your Speed, rather than just your Speed."
Sudden Leap:
"When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase your maximum distance to double your Speed."
Where does this say you increase the height of the jump? It only mentions the DC. It's possible that the wording is wrong and the intent is to increase the height, but I don't see how you can interpret the current wording as increasing the height of the jump. High jump isn't like Long Jump, it's a static DC to increase the height of the jump, not a scale, so having something change the DCs wouldn't increase the height.Fixed your highlighting for you ;)
But seriously, if this line was meant to have literally no effect on a high jump, then why does it mention high jumps? And if it is supposed to have an effect on high jumps, then can you please explain what that effect might be?
I acknowledged it's likely that it's just worded badly. It does affect high jumps, as it lowers the DC to something very easy. There are also plenty of feats that increase the height of your Leaps, so jumping 10 feet up isn't a stretch by any means. The benefit of the feat is that you wouldn't take damage after falling 10 feet after leaping up to strike an enemy. Jumping 10 feet straight up is quite a feat in itself, the World Record for high jumping is only 8 feet after all.
Also I find it funny that you aren't so concerned with RAW when it's about something that limits the PCs strengths... Almost like you pick and choose which rules you follow based on if they're beneficial to you? Who knows.
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Dunno...
Sudden Leap is a level 8 class feat which a) puts it very well in the range of Fly/Wind Walk and b) in a range where more and more enemies will be able to fly (if the environment is suitable), so I would not entirely rule out the possibility that it does indeed increase the maximum height of the jump, simply to give the two main melee heavy hitters a chance to actually hit stuff with melee weapons without having to rely on ranged weapons or spells. The Rogue and Swashbuckler simply get this option much later. I am just wondering why the Rogue feat is named and worded slightly different, but this could very well be in preparation of other "roguelike" classes that will get the same feat option at the same level in a way the Barbarian and Fighter share it at the same level now.
At the moment this is at least how we play it because in our non-native speaker understanding the wording is clear. Both types of jump are mentioned, both use Long Jump DC and both have their limits increased.
However I have to admit that either rulings are strange. Either the Barbarian and Fighter are limited to 8 feet High Jumps and the Rogue can greatly outdo both with 25 feet eventually or the Barbarian and Fighter can do 50 feet High Jumps eventually while the Rogue is still limited to 25 feet. Those feats should be streamlined and clarified.
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I acknowledged it's likely that it's just worded badly.
As far as I can tell it's only worded poorly if your assumptions are correct. In fact, not just poorly, but flat-out incorrect. personally, when trying to figure out what words mean I don't like assuming the words are wrong. At that point I might as well just make something up.
It does affect high jumps, as it lowers the DC to something very easy.
Can you please explain how this would work? Because if it's not X DC = X ft, then I see no indication of another way for it to work.
There are also plenty of feats that increase the height of your Leaps, so jumping 10 feet up isn't a stretch by any means. The benefit of the feat is that you wouldn't take damage after falling 10 feet after leaping up to strike an enemy
I didn't ask how the feat affects high jumps. I asked how the sentence does. This is irrelevant to the point that they wouldn't have added high jumps to the sentence if it didn't affect high jumps.
Jumping 10 feet straight up is quite a feat in itself, the World Record for high jumping is only 8 feet after all.
I couldn't care less what people can do IRL.
Anyway, wrapping it all up:
Let's not forget the sentence structure here. It seems some preconceived notions about what a high jump should do are sneaking in, so let's break it down. We have:
When doing A or B, use C, and increase D to E instead of F
With the above sentence, again, assuming that the Dev's aren't incompetent, would it not follow that A's D increases to E, where A is High Jump, D is the maximum distance, and E is twice your speed? And not only that, but it also indicates that if it didn't include the statement "and increase D to E instead of F", then the correct interpretation of A using C would be that D would be F. Or, in other words, that using the long jump DC (C) for high jumps (A) makes it so the maximum distance (D) is equal to your speed (F).
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Oh, and just for fun, let's comment on this little character attack as well:
Also I find it funny that you aren't so concerned with RAW when it's about something that limits the PCs strengths... Almost like you pick and choose which rules you follow based on if they're beneficial to you? Who knows.
False character and motive assessments are irrelevant to the discussion. But hey, since we're on the topic, I've noticed a pattern as well. The main thing that I'm seeing in a variety of your posts is assuming that things are worded wrong, and that they really mean what you think they should mean. This often involves cherry-picking some words out of context and claiming that they're what's really important while other things should be ignored, typically because "it's just worded badly" or something similar, or, in this case, not just badly, but actually flat-out grammatically incorrect.
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I acknowledged it's likely that it's just worded pooorly.As far as I can tell it's only worded poorly if your assumptions are correct. In fact, not just poorly, but flat-out incorrect. personally, when trying to figure out what words mean I don't like assuming the words are wrong. At that point I might as well just make something up.
It literally only mentions the DC. Lets remove the Long Jump portion since we're only focusing on High Jumps:
"When attempting a High Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs, and increase your maximum distance to double your Speed."Yes, you could interpret that as how you're seeing it. I am not arguing that you shouldn't be able to make that jump with the feat, I am only pointing out that RAW it doesn't make sense. There's not a scale for High Jumps, it's a set DC to increase the height a set amount. So if we were to change the DC to match the scaling of Long Jumps, that would be a DC 5 to successfully jump vertically 5 feet. There is no "Maximum" to increase afterward.
It does affect high jumps, as it lowers the DC to something very easy.Can you please explain how this would work? Because if it's not X DC = X ft, then I see no indication of another way for it to work.
See above.
There are also plenty of feats that increase the height of your Leaps, so jumping 10 feet up isn't a stretch by any means. The benefit of the feat is that you wouldn't take damage after falling 10 feet after leaping up to strike an enemyI didn't ask how the feat affects high jumps. I asked how the sentence does. This is irrelevant to the point that they wouldn't have added high jumps to the sentence if it didn't affect high jumps.
If I had a feat that increases the height of my High Jumps by 5 feet, the DC would be 10.
Jumping 10 feet straight up is quite a feat in itself, the World Record for high jumping is only 8 feet after all.I couldn't care less what people can do IRL.
Pointing out that a 10ft high jump is already a massive feat of strength is only to illustrate how fantastic a 20+ foot high jump would be. If only there were a feat that allowed such a Fantastic Leap...
Anyway, wrapping it all up:
Anyway, wrapping it all up:
Let's not forget the sentence structure here. It seems some preconceived notions about what a high jump should do are sneaking in, so let's break it down. We have:
When doing A or B, use C, and increase D to E instead of F
With the above sentence, again, assuming that the Dev's aren't incompetent, would it not follow that A's D increases to E, where A is High Jump, D is the maximum distance, and E is twice your speed? And not only that, but it also indicates that if it didn't include the statement "and increase D to E instead of F", then the correct interpretation of A using C would be that D would be F. Or, in other words, that using the long jump DC (C) for high jumps (A) makes it so the maximum distance (D) is equal to your speed (F).
Let me sum up what I'm saying: I am not saying that's not the intent, I am simply pointing out the RAW is poorly written. This can be important if you end up playing with a GM that interprets is the way I am explaining. Simply understanding the differing point of view can avoid an argument in the future if you encounter this situation.
Oh, and just for fun, let's comment on this little character attack as well:
Also I find it funny that you aren't so concerned with RAW when it's about something that limits the PCs strengths... Almost like you pick and choose which rules you follow based on if they're beneficial to you? Who knows.False character and motive assessments are irrelevant to the discussion. But hey, since we're on the topic, I've noticed a pattern as well. The main thing that I'm seeing in a variety of your posts is assuming that things are worded wrong, and that they really mean what you think they should mean. This often involves cherry-picking some words out of context and claiming that they're what's really important while other things should be ignored, typically because "it's just worded badly" or something similar, or, in this case, not just badly, but actually flat-out grammatically incorrect.
What, I can't point out hypocrisy when I see it? I have mentioned this before: Players are more inclined to interpret the rules in ways that make them stronger. I am more inclined to do the opposite. And I assume a lot of rules are written incorrectly because I know the designers are humans and things slip through the cracks. I don't blame them, this is a difficult job. I merely try to understand intent by looking at other examples that are similar, like pointing out the fact that Fantastic Leap and Sudden Leap, two similar abilities that came out in the same rulebook, are written differently. And the one that's more powerful is a higher level. Strange how that is, isn't it? Almost like that shows some sort of intentional game design.
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What, I can't point out hypocrisy when I see it? I have mentioned this before: Players are more inclined to interpret the rules in ways that make them stronger. I am more inclined to do the opposite.
Me disagreeing with you on points that happen to be in favor of the player isn't hypocrisy. I try to be consistent with how I read the rules. And btw, why would you assume I'm a player and not a GM? Granted, I'm a player in 2 regular campaigns and only a GM in one, but I regularly do both. My view of RAW doesn't magically change when I'm a GM or a player, nor do I, as a GM, have a vested interest in my players being weaker, so idk why a GM would necessarily be biased against players. That sounds more like a you thing.
And I assume a lot of rules are written incorrectly because I know the designers are humans and things slip through the cracks. I don't blame them, this is a difficult job. I merely try to understand intent by looking at other examples that are similar, like pointing out the fact that Fantastic Leap and Sudden Leap, two similar abilities that came out in the same rulebook, are written differently. And the one that's more powerful is a higher level. Strange how that is, isn't it? Almost like that shows some sort of intentional game design.
There are many abilities that are mismatched in terms of level and power-level when compared to each other, especially if they come from different classes. Btw, this is just another example of what I was talking about before: you think it should be a certain way for one reason or another (usually "balance") and so any reading that leads to a different interpretation, even if it's plainly obvious in the text, must be a mistake / not RAI. But you know what else shows intentional game design? The design of the game, and the words they choose. You know, words like "and increase the maximum distance to double your Speed". The maximum distance of what, you ask? Easy, basic English and sentence structure tells us it's High Jump and Long Jump, since when you use either High Jump OR Long Jump, you do the following. If it didn't want to affect high jumps there were multiple options. They could have split that up in a separate sentence that talks about long jumps, they could say "for long jumps", or they could say the maximum horizontal distance increases, which would be consistent with the wording of Leap, Long Jump, and High Jump, which all make a distinction between horizontal and vertical distance.
P.S. It's also blatantly false to say there's no "Maximum" for High Jumps. Not only because of them using the Long Jump DCs to determine distance, but even if that wasn't the case the High Jump activity has the following:
Critical Success Increase the maximum vertical distance to 8 feet, or increase the maximum vertical distance to 5 feet and maximum horizontal distance to 10 feet.
Success Increase the maximum vertical distance to 5 feet.
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That still doesn't answer why Fantastic Leap is different. It's the only one of the three that explicitly states you can increase the height of the jump. Further, lets take this to an extreme:
At level 14 my Elf Swashbuckler will have a speed of 55 with Panache. If I used Flamboyant Leap, I would be able to jump up to 110 feet straight up. Yes, that's a DC 110 athletics check, so something more reasonable would be 50 feet, a DC 50 jump. That DC is 10 lower because of Flamboyant Athlete, so a DC 40. With a +25 to Athletics, that's a pretty good chance to make the DC. The equivalent to this is a fly speed of 100 feet, which is pretty fast if you ask me. All this in only a single feat, seems pretty powerful to me.
So the question is: Is this the intent of Powerful and Flamboyant Athlete? Yes Cloud Jump exists, but I would basically gain the benefits of that feat just by being an expert in Athletics, rather than having to invest all the way to Legendary and a skill feat in it.
Thank you everyone for your passionate arguments and discussion. There doesn’t seem to be a solid consensus, so until Paizo deems this worthy of an elaboration we will have to take a Leap of Faith. Hmmm, new jumping feat for Champions?
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...we will have to take a Leap of Faith. Hmmm, new jumping feat for Champions?
Yes, but it gets you nowhere that has support. :)
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So if we were to change the DC to match the scaling of Long Jumps, that would be a DC 5 to successfully jump vertically 5 feet.
If I had a feat that increases the height of my High Jumps by 5 feet, the DC would be 10.
Incorrect.
Long Jump has the success condition 'Increase the maximum horizontal distance you Leap to the desired distance', with the desired distance determining the base DC. That, and not the DC itself, is what determines your ability to jump that far.
High Jump has no such language. It doesn't care what the DC is, the degrees of success specify your maximum jump distance directly (modified by applicable feats). Critically succeeding at a DC 5, DC 30, and DC 50 check all do the same thing.
The only way we arrive at your interpretation is by using the degrees of success from Long Jump, but also trying to combine them with the degrees of success from High Jump. That's not taking just the DC from Long Jump.
The actual outcome of your interpretation is that you can declare any target distance for your High Jump, which sets the DC, and then it doesn't actually matter after that. Which means you should always pick DC 1, and anything else is screwing yourself for no reason. Which if you figure that's obviously how they intended the ability to work then more power to you, I guess.