If I'm playing a wizard with Recognize Spell, and an enemy cleric casts a divine spell that also falls on the Arcane list, such as ray of enfeeblement for example, can I attempt to identify it with Arcana? Why or why not? Please explain your answer.
(I am more interested in the reasoning and discussion than I am for the "correct" answer.)
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I think no, because though the spell could be cast by someone with arcane magic, it is being cast by someone with divine magic, and so this version of the spell has the divine trait but not arcane trait. The wording of Recognize Spell says "the spell's tradition", not "one of the spell's traditions." The different spell traditions presumably work differently, and if the casting didn't look different, it really wouldn't mean anything for a spell to take the trait of one tradition and not another.
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I would say yes. You can use any of the skills associated with a spell’s traditions to identify that spell. Identifying a spell has more to do with the underlying magical essence of the spell than the specific tradition being used at the moment, so any applicable skill should work.
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If you have the spell prepared, you automatically know the spell, regardless of what tradition casts it.
If not, you can spend an action to Recall Knowledge on your turn to identify the spell.
The only mentions of requiring a specific school are in the Recognize Spell Reaction and Identify Magic. Since you usually use Recall Knowledge to identify a spell after it's cast, per the Recall Knowledge rules it's up to the GM
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Honestly, all of the stances expressed so far are reasonable and I've waffled on this myself. I tend to go with the caster's tradition being the defining answer. If the spell "breaks" tradition, like a demon with divine fireballs, then a Religion check might reflect your knowledge of shat kinds of spells that kind of demon uses.
The GM rolls a secret Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion check, whichever corresponds to the tradition of the spell being cast.
If a Witch of Divine tradition takes Lesson of the Elements and learns Burning Hands, then the Witch learns it as a Divine spell. When that Witch casts Burning Hands, it is a Divine spell.
So if a Sorcerer of Divine tradition has Recognize Spell, should that Sorcerer be allowed to use Religion to make the check? Or would they be forced to use either Arcana or Nature? If so, which one? Or would the Sorcerer be allowed to choose between those two?
Personally I am of the opinion that the 'tradition of the spell being cast' is the tradition that the spellcaster is using to cast the spell with. So at that point this Witch is casting a Divine spell and should be recognized using the Religion skill, or automatically recognized only by another character that has a Divine version of Burning Hands available. Yes, that means that a Wizard or Druid would be at a bit of a disadvantage recognizing it since they would have to use Religion to do it with. Even though they could both recognize Burning Hands being cast by another arcane or primal spellcaster respectively.
Like Captain Morgan said, I can see the validity of either ruling. Basing the skill check on the preferred tradition of the person doing the recognize check would make it more available. More useful in general since you could more easily recognize more spell being cast.
Thank you @Ravingdork for asking a question that at first glance looked easy enough to answer, however the deeper I looked the more confused I got.
But let me start with my assumption that both Recognize Spell as well as Quick Recognition are just meant as extensions of the Identifying Spells activity. Recognize spell makes it a reaction, Quick Recognition a free action even. The big question here is, if - for example - a Wall of Fire (Divine) is the same spell as Wall of Fire (Arcane). And here it is where strange things seem to happen regardless if you answer 'yes' or if you answer 'no'.
However at first some excurse about Traditions. Here we are told that spell traditions depends on your class and that if you gain access to a spell from other traditions that spell uses your own tradition. So far so good. In addition lets add Identify Magic to the mix that, while being its own action, clearly states that each tradition has a corresponding skill.
Now lets create some scenarios for comparison.
Scenario A: Both a Cleric of Sarenrae and a Wizard have Wall of Fire prepared.
Scenario B: Only one of them (aka the caster) has Wall of Fire prepared.
Scenario C: One of them has already cast the spell and the other has the means to identify the effect before it runs out.
Case 1: Wall of Fire (Arcane) is the same spell as Wall of Fire (Divine)
* Scenario A: As per the rules for identifying spells both know which spell has just been cast and its level if heightened.
* Scenario B: Spending of an action and the use of Recall Knowledge is required, the question being which skill to use. There are cases to be made for each of the casters using their own traditions skill, especially under the assumption of full spell compatibility, however to me this is not fully clear.
* Scenario C: As per the rules of Identifying Magic the tradition of the effect clearly defines the skill to be used, so it is either Arcana or Religion with no choice being given.
Case 2: Wall of Fire (Arcane) is not the same spell as Wall of Fire (Divine)
* Scenario A: Both casters would not be able to automatically identify the spell despite having it prepared themselves.
* Scenario B: Spending of an action and the use of Recall Knowledge would be required. Depending on who has actually just cast the spell either Arcana or Religion would be required for identification.
* Scenario C: Depending on who has actually created the effect either Arcana or Religion would be required for identification.
So for case 1 scenario A works well, scenario B could be debatable and scenario C is even a litte opposite the original case assumption. And for case 2 scenario B and C work well (as in they are well defined rules cases), however scenario A suddenly stops working and this is very counter-intuitive.
Coming full circle and considering that Recognize spell is using the line
The GM rolls a secret Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion check, whichever corresponds to the tradition of the spell being cast.
and this feat seems to be an extension of the normal process of Identifying Spells I tend to favor the conclusion that Wall of Fire (Arcane) is not being identical to Wall of Fire (Divine) and that case 2 applies to all scenarios and applicable skills and feats. Which is: Always use the skill of the tradition of the spell being cast regardless if you happen to know this spell from another tradition.
As many have mentioned, I don't think there's a clear answer by RAW. For thematic reasons, though, I personally consider Burning Hands (Arcane) to be different from Burning Hands (Primal) and require Arcana instead of Nature, since I imagine the process of casting the spell is very different for a primal caster and an arcane caster, and as far as I'm aware recognizing a spell is thematically based on noticing the incantations, movements, and so on of the caster as they're casting the spell.
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I think the use of "the tradition" is misleading because it implies there's a single tradition per spell, which is false for a majority of spells (before including methods to acquire them for another list).
So it seems IDing a spell could use any that apply.
Wall of Fire is Arcane & Primal, so either should work as "the" tradition, with the GM rolling whichever is higher for the creature IDing it. For the Saranrae Cleric, I'd likely let them ID it via Religion (assuming that's their better skill) because it is part of their tradition (and their religion, hence Religion being used), even if not most Clerics'.
And I do see the same spell as being the same spell despite which tradition taught it to them; different paths to the same destination or perhaps different as Venn diagrams overlapping on the same region (that spell).
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With the trait rules in place, it's a mixture of Case 1 and Case 2, since a Burning Hands with an Arcane trait is different from a Burning Hands with a Primal trait. Because they have those different traits, they are not the same spell by RAW, meaning identifying it without it prepared and such requires the relevant skill. However, automatic identification occurs if it is prepared or in the repertoire, since that would override the need for tradition identification. They still function identically, but the trait nuances provide only semantic differences in casting.
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There's nothing in RAW that states a spell acquiring/having different traits makes it a different spell, whether it's alignment, energy, or in this case tradition.
Let's not overstate our opinions here, please.
There's nothing in RAW that states a spell acquiring/having different traits makes it a different spell, whether it's alignment, energy, or in this case tradition.
Let's not overstate our opinions here, please.
I mean, yeah, the "there's a difference between the traditions" argument that I've primarily seen here isn't really claiming that it's a different spell per-se, and I think most if not everyone here would agree that if it's not prepared nor is it in your repertoire, then it doesn't matter which tradition the caster is using to cast it. The question is simply which tradition is the spell when it comes to determining what skill check to use, since it doesn't say you can use the appropriate skill for one of the spell's traditions, but rather "the appropriate skill for the spell’s tradition." An argument can easily be made either way. I don't see either side as overstating one's opinions, and personally I take a neutral stance on the issue.
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I mean, yeah, the "there's a difference between the traditions" argument that I've primarily seen here isn't really claiming that it's a different spell per-se, and I think most if not everyone here would agree that if it's not prepared nor is it in your repertoire, then it doesn't matter which tradition the caster is using to cast it. The question is simply which tradition is the spell when it comes to determining what skill check to use, since it doesn't say you can use the appropriate skill for one of the spell's traditions, but rather "the appropriate skill for the spell’s tradition." An argument can easily be made either way. I don't see either side as overstating one's opinions, and personally I take a neutral stance on the issue.There's nothing in RAW that states a spell acquiring/having different traits makes it a different spell, whether it's alignment, energy, or in this case tradition.
Let's not overstate our opinions here, please.
That was addressed to the statement prior, which does argue that, not the group in general, which doesn't.
I do agree it's a bit murkier when we get into which skill to roll, though I support using the highest skill that qualifies for that spell and I think that follows from thinking of the spell as being a singular entity, even if it can be powered/learned/etc. in different ways.
Paizo once stated that a spell can have different special effects, i.e. a Drow casting Web might have faux spiders spinning it into existence while another caster might spew goo or whatever suits their style.
If differences like that don't change IDing (nor any other mechanics), I don't see why tradition would.
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While I can see points on both interpretations, I'd fall on ruling that the spell's tradition is whatever tradition it is actively being cast as, not the collection of traditions that could (normally) be expected to cast it.
Part of this is due to how some abilities/enemies can improve saves vs. effects of a particular tradition. Say your wizard casts an arcane spell against a Raktavarna, which has a "+2 status to all saves vs. divine magic." Now, is it reasonable for the GM to say that the enemy gets the +2 save bonus because your wizard's spell was on both the arcane and divine lists? I'd say no - the spell was cast as an arcane spell by a class using the arcane tradition, and the wizard shouldn't reasonably be expected to double check all of their spells to see which ones overlap with the divine tradition. It would feel abusive for the GM to declare in this instance that the spell counts as divine because it could be cast as a divine spell, even if nothing divine is related to the current casting.
Similarly, if a Cleric of Sarenrae casts a fireball against a Raktavarna, I wouldn't rule that they could ignore the creature's bonus to saves vs divine magic because the fireball spell does not have the divine tradition listed. The cleric is currently casting it as a divine spell, thus all effects related to divine magic will trigger regardless of what traditions are normally associated with the spell.
As such, I'd consider that for the purposes of Recognize Spell, I'd have to be consistent in saying that the current casting of the spell is the tradition it is being cast as, regardless of what traditions could cast it. You can't use Religion to identify an arcane casting of a spell that is on both lists, just like you couldn't use Religion to identify an arcane/primal casting of fireball simply because there are a limited selection of Clerics who can get it as a divine spell.
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A Spell that is being cast always carries the Tradition Trait that the Spellcaster uses for the "Slot" you're using or in the circumstance where it comes from some Activation the gear or ability will always specify which Tradition.
A Fireball cast by a Divine Tradition Spellcaster does NOT have the Arcane Trait and you cannot use Arcana to identify it despite it being a valid choice for Arcane Spellcasters. You need to use the Skill appropriate to the Tradition that the creature/hazard/effect is actually using.
I don't see this as ambiguous at all, the Spells rules describe this pretty well and makes it very clear that a Spell that is somehow "poached" from another Tradition is NOT being cast from that Tradition and gains only the Traits that are associated with what the source/caster directly. Charon has put it very well describing how/why this is the case and how if this were allowed then there would be ripples that stretch from this interpretation that cause untold wonkiness when it comes to abilities that actually care about the Tradition being used
...this is due to how some abilities/enemies can improve saves vs. effects of a particular tradition. Say your wizard casts an arcane spell against a Raktavarna, which has a "+2 status to all saves vs. divine magic." Now, is it reasonable for the GM to say that the enemy gets the +2 save bonus because your wizard's spell was on both the arcane and divine lists? I'd say no - the spell was cast as an arcane spell by a class using the arcane tradition, and the wizard shouldn't reasonably be expected to double check all of their spells to see which ones overlap with the divine tradition. It would feel abusive for the GM to declare in this instance that the spell counts as divine because it could be cast as a divine spell, even if nothing divine is related to the current casting.
Similarly, if a Cleric of Sarenrae casts a fireball against a Raktavarna, I wouldn't rule that they could ignore the creature's bonus to saves vs divine magic because the fireball spell does not have the divine tradition listed. The cleric is currently casting it as a divine spell, thus all effects related to divine magic will trigger regardless of what traditions are normally associated with the spell.
As such, I'd consider that for the purposes of Recognize Spell, I'd have to be consistent in saying that the current casting of the spell is the tradition it is being cast as, regardless of what traditions could cast it. You can't use Religion to identify an arcane casting of a spell that is on both lists, just like you couldn't use Religion to identify an arcane/primal casting of fireball simply because there are a limited selection of Clerics who can get it as a divine spell.
Respectfully, I don't believe your examples have any bearing on Recognize Spell whatsoever. One could easily make an entirely different ruling in regards to your given example than they could this case and it be perfectly fine and reasonable.
Quite simply, they're similar, but not really related.
(And for the record, I agree with you and would run it as you do insofar as your examples are concerned. But for Recognize Spell? I think it would be totally fine to use a skill appropriate to any of the spell's relevant traditions to identify it.)
...this is due to how some abilities/enemies can improve saves vs. effects of a particular tradition. Say your wizard casts an arcane spell against a Raktavarna, which has a "+2 status to all saves vs. divine magic." Now, is it reasonable for the GM to say that the enemy gets the +2 save bonus because your wizard's spell was on both the arcane and divine lists? I'd say no - the spell was cast as an arcane spell by a class using the arcane tradition, and the wizard shouldn't reasonably be expected to double check all of their spells to see which ones overlap with the divine tradition. It would feel abusive for the GM to declare in this instance that the spell counts as divine because it could be cast as a divine spell, even if nothing divine is related to the current casting.
As such, I'd consider that for the purposes of Recognize Spell, I'd have to be consistent in saying that the current casting of the spell is the tradition it is being cast as, regardless of what traditions could cast it.
Respectfully, I don't believe your examples have any bearing on Recognize Spell whatsoever. One could easily make an entirely different ruling in regards to your given example than they could this case and it be perfectly fine and reasonable.
Quite simply, they're similar, but not really related.
(And for the record, I agree with you and would run it as you do insofar as your examples are concerned. But for Recognize Spell? I think it would be totally fine to use a skill appropriate to any of the spell's relevant traditions.)
I think it's very relevant. These bonuses and penalties work or don't work depending on what tradition the effect / spell is from. The wording is almost identical. If Recognize Spell said you could use the appropriate skill for "one of the spell's traditions", or even simply "the spell's traditions", then I would see your point. However, with the current wording it quite clearly states that you must be trained in the singular relevant skill based on the spell's singular tradition. If a spell's tradition could be defined as any list it appears on, then that same ruling would also apply to affects that are based on a spell's tradition.
I can totally understand a house rule on this, though. Personally, I like giving my players a reason to diversify their skill increases, but I know not everyone thinks the same, and honestly, it's kind of a minor thing in the grand scheme of things.
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Respectfully, I don't believe your examples have any bearing on Recognize Spell whatsoever. One could easily make an entirely different ruling in regards to your given example than they could this case and it be perfectly fine and reasonable.
Quite simply, they're similar, but not really related.
(And for the record, I agree with you and would run it as you do insofar as your examples are concerned. But for Recognize Spell? I think it would be totally fine to use a skill appropriate to any of the spell's relevant traditions to identify it.)
For me - it comes down to the question of what does it mean to say, "the spell's tradition?" Whatever the answer is should apply in all scenarios that rely on determining a tradition - it seems rather inconsistent to say that the spell's tradition is X when we talk about saving throws, but both X & Y when we talk about Recognize Spell.
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For a different reasoning as to how I view Recognize Spell, I'd note how each interpretation would run in play. Recognize Spell involves a secret roll on the GM's side. For the interpretation that "spell's tradition = tradition cast as," the GM looks at the caster's tradition, looks up the relevant skill on the player's character sheet, then makes the roll and determines the result. Fairly simple and quick.
For the interpretation of "spell's tradition = all traditions listed," The GM has to look at the tradition of the caster, look up all traditions associated with the spell, look up all relevant skills on the player's character sheet, determine which skill has the highest bonus among them (so not to be unfair to the player), then make the roll and determine the result. Not only is this longer/more complicated - but it brings up a rather messy question: "What happens when the caster's tradition is not included in the listed spell traditions?"
To illustrate, say a Cleric of Sarenrae casts Fireball and you try to recognize the spell. The interpretation of "spell's tradition = all traditions listed" means that you can always use Arcane and Primal to identify the fireball spell regardless of caster, but are you allowed to use Religion? To this, there seems to be 3 possible answers, all of which feel inconsistent and/or unfair.
1) Yes, only in this instance. You can use Religion to identify the Fireball casting from a Cleric, but not if another class cast the same spell. This feels inconsistent since Arcane/Primal always works under this interpretation regardless of caster, but Religion only sometimes works depending on the caster.
2) Yes, in all instances. Religion can always be used to identify Fireball (or any other spell granted by a deity) because it is possible for it to be cast under the divine tradition. This solves the inconsistency of the first answer, but introduces a new problem in requiring knowledge of every option that could give a spell off-tradition, which seems a bit unreasonable due to getting updated every time a new book is released. It also means that which skills can be used to identify a spell could change in the middle of a campaign when a new option is released (i.e. last week Religion couldn't be used to identify that spell, but a new ancestry feat was just released allowing tieflings to cast it as a divine innate spell, so now you can use Religion to identify the same spell from any caster).
3) No. Religion can never be used to identify Fireball because it is an Arcane/Primal spell. This runs into the obvious issue of not allowing Religion to recognize a divine spell cast by a divine tradition caster, which seems inconsistent with the purpose of the Religion skill. It'd also feel rather unfair to tell a character that despite having Religion and attempting to identify a divine spell cast by a Cleric, they can't roll above a failure because they're untrained in Arcana/Nature.
Overall: Interpreting "spell's tradition = tradition cast as" seems like it makes things simple, quick, and consistent across any rules reliant on traditions. Interpreting "spell's tradition = all traditions listed" seems like it makes running Recognize Spell more difficult and forces some version of an unsatisfying ruling whenever caster tradition does not match the listed spell tradition(s).
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To illustrate, say a Cleric of Sarenrae casts Fireball and you try to recognize the spell. The interpretation of "spell's tradition = all traditions listed" means that you can always use Arcane and Primal to identify the fireball spell regardless of caster, but are you allowed to use Religion? To this, there seems to be 3 possible answers, all of which feel inconsistent and/or unfair.
Fully agree with this and the 3 scenarios presented.
The only other question I have is what to do about recognizing a spell that you have prepared even if it is via a non-standard tradition for the purposes of counterspell.
The example of the Cleric of Sarenrae doesn't work so well. But the example of a Divine tradition Witch with Lesson of Elements that has Burning Hands prepared. Could they automatically recognize and therefore counterspell Burning Hands cast by a Wizard? How about Burning Hands being cast as a Divine spell by that Cleric of Sarenrae?
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To illustrate, say a Cleric of Sarenrae casts Fireball and you try to recognize the spell. The interpretation of "spell's tradition = all traditions listed" means that you can always use Arcane and Primal to identify the fireball spell regardless of caster, but are you allowed to use Religion? To this, there seems to be 3 possible answers, all of which feel inconsistent and/or unfair.Fully agree with this and the 3 scenarios presented.
The only other question I have is what to do about recognizing a spell that you have prepared even if it is via a non-standard tradition for the purposes of counterspell.
The example of the Cleric of Sarenrae doesn't work so well. But the example of a Divine tradition Witch with Lesson of Elements that has Burning Hands prepared. Could they automatically recognize and therefore counterspell Burning Hands cast by a Wizard? How about Burning Hands being cast as a Divine spell by that Cleric of Sarenrae?
Note that Counterspell doesn't mention the spell's tradition, nor does Identifying Spells if you have them prepared / in your repertoire, which must be the case for you to be able to Counterspell it anyway. The only time traditions come into the mix is if it's not prepared or in your repertoire, so counterspell is a non-issue. The only way around this would be to have a spell literally be considered a different spell if it uses a different tradition, but at that point you wouldn't be able to Counterspell it unless the traditions matched as well, so I don't think we want to go down that rabbit hole.
TLDR; Yes to all, since if you have it prepared / in your repertoire (which is required to use Counterspell anyway), then the tradition of the spell is irrelevant.
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Sometimes you need to identify a spell, especially if its effects are not obvious right away. If you notice a spell being cast, and you have prepared that spell or have it in your repertoire, you automatically know what the spell is, including the level to which it is heightened.
If you want to identify a spell but don’t have it prepared or in your repertoire, you must spend an action on your turn to attempt to identify it using Recall Knowledge. You typically notice a spell being cast by seeing its visual manifestations or hearing its verbal casting components. Identifying long-lasting spells that are already in place requires using Identify Magic instead of Recall Knowledge because you don’t have the advantage of watching the spell being cast.
The general rules for identifying spells don't seem to care about tradition at all if you have the spell prepared (or in your repertoire for spontaneous). Similarly, Counterspell never mentions tradition, only having the same spell.
So I'd say yes, your Divine Witch w/Burning Hands could automatically recognize and attempt to counterspell both the arcane Burning Hands and divine Burning Hands - since the rules elements here only care about the spell (Burning Hands) and not the tradition.
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For a comparison - I'd consider the rules interaction similar to having something like a standard greataxe, cold iron greataxe, and silver greataxe. They're all greataxes with the same damage die, weapon traits, proficiency, etc. For any rules elements that only care about the type of weapon, what they're made of doesn't matter. A Cleric with a greataxe as their deity's favored weapon would treat all of them the same for proficiency, and be able to wield them all equally well. For rules elements that do care about the materials a weapon is made of, like an enemy having "Weakness cold iron 10," then only the cold iron greataxe would trigger that weakness (and the other two don't get to trigger the weakness because they could have been crafted with cold iron).
For spells - this would mean that divine Burning Hands and arcane Burning Hands are both still the Burning Hands spell, with the same spell effects regardless of which tradition was used to cast them. Since automatic spell recognition and counterspell only care about the spell, they'd all get treated the same. Only with rules elements that care about tradition (typically skill interactions and save interactions from what I see) would they get treated differently.
Edit: Ninja'd
That makes sense to me, Charon Onozuka.