Weapon Runes (shifting in particular) and Doubling Rings


Rules Discussion


Moving this over from Pathfinder Society Forum

A couple of questions about this. My fighter has two basic modes of fighting...

Two handed:
When doing this I use +1 Striking Shifting Halberd. But as more is learned about the enemy (or if they close) I shift to another two-handed weapon (Great Axe, Maul, Greatsword, etc) In an adventure last night I actually switched to a Shield with Boss held in two hands (ala Everstand Stance) since I had not had the opportunity to actually switch to Everstand Stance, I used the d6 (+1 Striking of course) for the shield boss. I do have the feat Everstand Stance and am a member of Knights of Lastwall (had to check my organizations for that one).
Is this legal?

Shield and Weapon:
I have a minor sturdy shield that has a +1 Striking Shield Boss (different from the one above, that was a weapon shifted to a shield). I also have set of Doubling Rings that I wear with the gold ring on the shield arm. As I understand doubling rings, any weapon that I use in my other hand would pick up the +1 Striking. Is this correct?

And the situation came up last night where I needed to grapple something (dang invisible opponents) and was actually able to do so. Once grappled I hit it with my gauntlets and applied the +1 striking (transferred via the doubling rings). Is this legal?

And yes, all of these came up in one adventure and he is a convoluted fighter / mauler.

And one last question about Shifting Rune. If a weapon has the Two-hand trait, could you shift it to a one-hand or two hand weapon depending on how it was held?

Thanks for any feedback and suggestions.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Shifting into a shield: No. A shield is not a weapon that requires 2 hands to wield (on both counts, not weapon, not 2 handed). Having Everstand Stance doesn't change that.

Doubling +1 Striking from a wielded shield boss to a weapon wielded in the other hand: totally legal.

The gauntlet question: needs more specifics. If you have a shield with a +1 Striking boss wielded in one hand, you can strike with a gauntlet on the other hand and apply the doubling rings. But if you are using a shield in your left hand and holding a creature with your right hand (or vice versa) what hand are you attacking with gauntlets with? By my count there isn't one left.

One-handed weapons with the Two-Hand trait still only shift into other weapons that require one hand.


I second Hammerjack's statements. Btw, the key wording with the gauntlet question is under the free-hand trait.

Free-Hand wrote:
You can’t attack with a free-hand weapon if you’re wielding anything in that hand or otherwise using that hand.

So assuming you are grappling someone with the hand that's wielding the gauntlet you wouldn't be able to attack with the gauntlet without dropping the grapple on it, since that hand is in use. However, you could have simply attacked with the shield in your other hand.

Oh, and point of clarification: a shield that has a shield boss or shield spikes on it does count as a weapon. It still doesn't require two hands to wield, though, so the answer remains the same.
It's also unclear whether it could even shift from a one-handed weapon, since the actual weapon is the boss / spikes, which must be attached to a shield, not really the shield itself. I would rule that it can, but I wouldn't be surprised if a GM makes a different ruling.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A shield boss or spikes are a weapon. The shield itself is not. So Shifting a weapon into a shield with a boss is not an option.


I edited my post as you were typing that to point out the potential conflict. And yeah, you're right. It's definitely a grey area at the very least, and not something you should rely on a GM allowing unless you asked ahead of time.

Horizon Hunters

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I am now imagining shifting a shield boss into a bastard sword and watching it just drop off the shield. And then since it's not wielded anymore, shifting back into a shield boss.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
And then since it's not wielded anymore, shifting back into a shield boss.

Where, exactly, is this part coming from?

Horizon Hunters

From me thinking that there was a line that made shifting runes only work while wielded, which apparently there isn't.


My thinking was, if you have Everstand Stance you can choose to use a Shield with Boss (or Spikes) as a two handed weapon (hence the increased damage, ala any other weapon with the two-hand trait).

Now that you have explained the gauntlet issue, that I can agree with.

I never tried to shift a weapon into one with a different number of hand, that one was that I anticipated... hence the +1 striking on the shield boss and the halberd.

Thanks

Shadow Lodge

HammerJack wrote:
Quote:
And then since it's not wielded anymore, shifting back into a shield boss.
Where, exactly, is this part coming from?
In this particular case, it's coming from the rings themselves:
Doubling Rings (Item 3+) wrote:

Evocation, Invested, Magical

Source Core Rulebook pg. 609 2.0
Usage worn

This item consists of two magically linked rings: an intricate, gleaming golden ring with a square-cut ruby, and a thick, plain iron ring. When you wield a melee weapon in the hand wearing the golden ring, the weapon’s fundamental runes are replicated onto any melee weapon you wield in the hand wearing the iron ring. (The fundamental runes are weapon potency and striking, which add an item bonus to attack rolls and extra weapon damage dice, respectively.) Any fundamental runes on the weapon in the hand wearing the iron ring are suppressed.

The replication functions only if you wear both rings, and it ends as soon as you cease wielding a melee weapon in one of your hands. Consequently, the benefit doesn’t apply to thrown attacks or if you’re holding a weapon but not wielding it (such as holding in one hand a weapon that requires two hands to wield).

If you apply the rune via the rings, transform the weapon, and then drop it, it loses the rune, which probably means it returns to it's original form (though there is an argument that it stays in its new form).

If you are talking about a boss with the actual rune on it, then it would keep the rune benefits even if you drop it.

Horizon Hunters

Yea that's probably what I was thinking of. I knew somewhere there was something that as soon as you stop wielding it, it loses the function of the rune.


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Lonnie Barnett 212 wrote:
My thinking was, if you have Everstand Stance you can choose to use a Shield with Boss (or Spikes) as a two handed weapon (hence the increased damage, ala any other weapon with the two-hand trait).

The problem isn't the number of hands you're wielding it with, but rather the number of hands required to wield it. A weapon with the two-hand trait only requires one hand to wield.

This is an important distinction, and it keeps the intended limitations of shifting in place. Otherwise you could shift from a greatsword to a bastard sword, and then into any one-handed weapon, or vice versa. This is outside of the ability's intended use, and it's worded in such a way to prevent this.

When an ability or trait requires you to wield a weapon in two hands to gain it's benefits that does not make said weapon a two-handed weapon, nor does it mean that the weapon itself requires two hands to wield.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Taja the Barbarian wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Quote:
And then since it's not wielded anymore, shifting back into a shield boss.
Where, exactly, is this part coming from?
In this particular case, it's coming from the rings themselves:
Doubling Rings (Item 3+) wrote:

Evocation, Invested, Magical

Source Core Rulebook pg. 609 2.0
Usage worn

This item consists of two magically linked rings: an intricate, gleaming golden ring with a square-cut ruby, and a thick, plain iron ring. When you wield a melee weapon in the hand wearing the golden ring, the weapon’s fundamental runes are replicated onto any melee weapon you wield in the hand wearing the iron ring. (The fundamental runes are weapon potency and striking, which add an item bonus to attack rolls and extra weapon damage dice, respectively.) Any fundamental runes on the weapon in the hand wearing the iron ring are suppressed.

The replication functions only if you wear both rings, and it ends as soon as you cease wielding a melee weapon in one of your hands. Consequently, the benefit doesn’t apply to thrown attacks or if you’re holding a weapon but not wielding it (such as holding in one hand a weapon that requires two hands to wield).

If you apply the rune via the rings, transform the weapon, and then drop it, it loses the rune, which probably means it returns to it's original form (though there is an argument that it stays in its new form).

If you are talking about a boss with the actual rune on it, then it would keep the rune benefits even if you drop it.

No shifting rune was being doubled in the discussion. That's where the confusion came from.

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