School evocation [sonic]; Level arcanist 5, bard 4, bloodrager 4, magus 4, psychic 5, skald 4, sorcerer 5, spiritualist 5, wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a tuning fork and a quartz crystal)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect translucent wall of sound up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of sound with a radius of up to 5 ft./two levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A translucent barrier of pure sound springs into existence. This wall is silent except for a faint hum, but bursts with discordant noise when touched by an object or creature. The wall deflects arrows, bolts, loose debris, and Small or smaller flying creatures like a wind wall spell, except these things rebound harmlessly rather than being directed upward. The burst of discordant noise deals 2d4 points of sonic damage to creatures within 10 feet of the triggering object or creature; touching or passing through the wall deals 2d6 points of sonic damage + 1 point of sonic damage per caster level (maximum +20). If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. A silence spell suppresses the wall within its area, but the wall reappears when the silence ends.
So here's the situation.
We walked into a room with some baddies. The Wizard cast Black Tentacles and caught 3 of them, then the Bard cast Wall of Sound (a 5 foot radius ring) catching all 3. Because they were grappled they couldn't move, which meant we guessed at some stuff ...
1st question: Do they take damage instantly?
2nd question: Does each creature also trigger a blast of sound that deals damage (another 2d4) to anyone nearby?
3rd question: What happens to a creature that begins it's turn in the wall and leaves? Do they take damage again for passing through or was that already dealt when the wall was cast on them?
4th question: What happens to a creature who stays in the wall and doesn't leave? Do they take damage again on their turn? On the caster's?
1st question: Do they take damage instantly? We assumed yes based on the text about evoking the wall on creatures, so each creature took 2d4+12 damage. I'm pretty sure we got this right.
They should've taken 2d6+12 damage. I think that's what you meant to say because you included the +12. Anywho, yes that's correct.
2nd question: Does each creature also trigger a blast of sound that deals damage (another 2d4) to anyone nearby? We assumed no and that this was already taken into account by the +12. I think this was wrong but it was more important to move along so I said I'd check later (which I'm doing now).
It would cause 2d4 dmg to anyone 10ft away from the creature who touched the ring, but this damage would not affect the creatures already hit by the 2d6+12 when initially cast.
3rd question: What happens to a creature that begins it's turn in the wall and leaves? Do they take damage again for passing through or was that already dealt when the wall was cast on them? We assumed no, they already took damage that round and wouldn't take it again until the caster's turn unless they go to pass through again.
The 2d4 damage from the Discordant Burst doesn't happen on the caster's turn, but rather it only occurs every time a creature triggers the 2d6+12 damage effect by touching the Ring. The Discordant Burst can also be triggered by Objects hitting the Ring as well. It's a burst of noise that affects the toucher for 2d6+12 and then anyone at that exact moment who is within 10 ft when the Ring gets touched would get hit by that Discordant Burst for 2d4 damage. So since the Ring itself occupies 4 squares, "The burst of discordant noise deals 2d4 points of sonic damage to creatures within 10 feet of the triggering object or creature", so it's not going to be 10ft from the ring itself, but 10ft from the square that that particular Touch happened in.
In the spell description, it does not explicitly address how a creature can begin its turn in the wall and leave, but I would treat that as a non-touching event personally (I think there might be some table variance on this). I don't think they would take damage from leaving, but they would take damage if they re-enter and touch the ring again, causing another Discordant Burst.
4th question: What happens to a creature who stays in the wall and doesn't leave? Do they take damage again on their turn? On the caster's? We assumed they took damage again on the caster's turn if they stay put. I think that's correct.
It isn't addressed in the spell description about if a creature stays in the wall and doesn't leave, but, I would probably treat any action they perform while touching that Ring as a "new touching event" (such as Standard Action to shoot a bow = touch, cast a spell = touch, retrieve a stored item = touch, attempt to escape a grapple = touch, etc.), except I would treat an action to Move away from the ring as a non-Touching event.
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Most of your answers are going to come down to interpretation. Wall spells don't lend themselves to easy answers. I'll put [interpretation] in front of the answers that don't have a clearly correct answer.
1. Yes. It should have been 2d6+12, but other than that your are correct.
2. [Interpretation] Depends on where they are standing. The damage is due to the jolt of sound. When the wall is evoked, it hits every creature in its path at once, creating sound. They all take 2d6+caster level. That jolt would also affect anyone else within 10 feet for 2d4 damage. But the ones already hit by the wall as it appeared wouldn't take more damage.
3. [Interpretation] No more damage. Otherwise invoking the spell on top of someone would unavoidably do the damage twice.
4. [Major Interpretation] Take 2d6+CL damage again on the caster's turn.
Wall of sound can be very deadly. Particularly if you try to apply logic to it.
-I remember one argument made that since the damage was the result of disturbing the wall, it was impossible to leave the wall without disturbing the wall. Therefore anytime someone left the wall, they and anyone else in the wall (within 10') would take full damage. So if you dropped a 5' ring on 3 NPCs, the last to leave would unavoidably take 10d6 + 5xCL damage.
-Or, what if the next person to go is on the PC's team? He shoots an arrow at the wall, and sets it off again. Another 2d6 + CL to everyone in the wall?
-Even if you go with the more sane ruling that the 2d6 + CL damage can only happen once per round, a many- multi-shot archer can still put at least 5 arrows into that 5' ring and deal 10d4 damage to everyone.
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4. [Major Interpretation] Take 2d6+CL damage again on the caster's turn.It's not on the caster's turn, it's every time anything touches the Ring. So these touch events would most likely happen on the creature's turn, not the caster's turn. Also, the affected creatures could be forcibly moved/repositioned several times by the Caster's party and cause several touch events before the Caster takes his turn again.
This is why I said that the answers were going to be very subject to interpretation. Neither one of us is right, and neither one of us is wrong.
The particular question here (#4) was specifically about what would happen if the wall was evoked on a creature who stayed in the wall and didn't move. Not about anything else going on in the round. My interpretation is that they would take the damage again. On the caster's turn, since that's one round after the wall appeared.
4. [Major Interpretation] Take 2d6+CL damage again on the caster's turn.It's not on the caster's turn, it's every time anything touches the Ring. So these touch events would most likely happen on the creature's turn, not the caster's turn. Also, the affected creatures could be forcibly moved/repositioned several times by the Caster's party and cause several touch events before the Caster takes his turn again.This is why I said that the answers were going to be very subject to interpretation. Neither one of us is right, and neither one of us is wrong.
The particular question here (#4) was specifically about what would happen if the wall was evoked on a creature who stayed in the wall and didn't move. Not about anything else going on in the round. My interpretation is that they would take the damage again. On the caster's turn, since that's one round after the wall appeared.
Yeah, I deleted it because I realized that you weren't quoting rules, but rather your own house rule/interpretation. All bueno.
Ok, so:
First, yes i meant 2d6+12, I wrote this at ~1am, so =P
1: Evoking the wall on top of enemies damages them instantly, nailed it.
3: If they leave the wall on their turn they don't take more damage since they already did. Got this one too.
4. Staying in the wall would probably deal more damage, and that damage would occur on the caster's turn. You both seem to he saying that any actions they take before moving away from the wall would also disturb the wall, dealing the 2d4 damage to anyone nearby. This seems like a LOT of damage. I know it's a 4th level spell, but a creature simply trying to escape a grapple so they CAN leave would cause everyone nearby to take another 2d4 damage, followed by that creature taking 2d6+12 on the caster's turn. Is that right?
Ok this one I was less sure of ...
2. You both seem to be saying that when the spell is cast creatures either take 2d6+12 damage OR they take 2d4 damage, but they won't take both even if they're within 10 feet of another person who's touching the wall. I can see the logic in this, but I'm not 100% sure I agree.
What happens if a 4th enemy walks into the wall on their own turn? They take 2d6+12 damage, but do the 3 enemies within the wall anow take damage? Do they take 2d6+12 or 2d4 ? They already took the 2d6+12 damage on the caster's turn, but this is a new triggering event. My interpretation is that whatever rule is used for this scenario would also be used for the wall being cast on them, or for staying within the wall and dealing damage on the caster's turn - simply because having so many different damage combo's gets confusing - but it's already confusing I guess ...?
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4. I didn't actually say that but yes, that's probably how I would rule it. Leaving the wall would not do any additional damage to anyone, but doing anything else (like trying and failing to escape a grapple) would. Logically even leaving the wall would disturb the wall but I just think it is excessively punitive to have guaranteed extra damage no matter what.
2. New triggering event, so the 4th enemy walking into the wall would take 2d6+CL and do 2d4 damage to everyone within 10'.
It all comes down to a question of "just how deadly do you think the wall is intended to be?" When you have interpretations like that to make my yardstick is always "what if the NPCs did this to the PCs?"
Yeah we had amazing positioning in this fight. The GM won initiative and bottled us in a corridor before we could move into the room. My Bloodrager was in front, so I just went "ok I block them from getting to the squishies" and the squishies threw in Black Tentacles, Wall of Sound and Confusion. We then basically watched as the enemies died in the loudest wall of tentacles imaginable (the confused enemies could shoot 6 ranged natural attacks per round), and the Gunslinger cleaned up whoever was left. There were 4 PCs, 1 friendly NPC and 7 enemies. Grand total I took 4hp of damage and the Gunslinger took 5hp of damage.
I think if we'd been closer to the wall it wouldn't have seemed so rediculous, since we would have been taking damage too.
So I guess the take-aways are:
1. When the spell is cast people in the wall take 2d6+12 damage, people within 10 feet take 2d4 damage. No person takes both of those damage rolls though, it's one or the other.
2. On the caster's turn every round repeat step 1 for anyone still in the wall.
3. Anyone who tries to shoot-through, attack, or interact with the wall triggers a new event where anyone within 10 feet of the triggering event takes 2d4 damage (and multiple attacks/etc will all trigger their own events).
4. Anyone who tries to move through the wall triggers an event where they take 2d6+12 damage, but anyone else within 10 feet takes 2d4 damage.
5. Leaving the wall when you started within it does NOT trigger an event.
That all seems reasonable to me. What do you think of this last one though (if I'm reading you right)...?
6. People within the wall trigger an event for every action they take, meaning Standard, Move, and Full-round actions. You said trying-and-failing to escape a grapple would trigger it, but what about trying-and-succeeding to escape ?
How does that sound?
And does that sum everything up in a reasonable manner? Or have I missed some details?
@Pizza Lord
1. By "In the wall" I meant that the wall was bisecting those creatures.
You seem to think the wall should come into being between squares, is that a rule I've missed or just how people tend to play? Because a "Ring" shape makes that a bit .. well stupid. The player drew a ring on the map and it bisected 3 creatures. That seemed reasonable to us.
2. I think we're on the same page.
3. So you seem to think there's no continual damage on the caseter's turn. The spell deals damage if cast "on" someone, and after that only if they disturb the wall ... I might agree with you actually. If they stay still within the wall it shouldn't do anything to them unless they disturb it ...
4. Hmmmm ... I just re-read it, it does say this:
The burst of discordant noise deals 2d4 points of sonic damage to creatures within 10 feet of the triggering object or creature; touching or passing through the wall deals 2d6 points of sonic damage + 1 point of sonic damage per caster level (maximum +20).
Do you think lying still within the wall counts as touching? Would that trigger at the top of every round or only when they first touch it? What if they're moving around? I guess that triggers it on their turn, so maybe still nothing on the caster's turn?
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1. That's not a rule you've missed. Like I said, wall spells require a lot of interpretation. My suggestion is that unless the wall is shapable (like wall of stone) you try to use the rules from CRB pages 214-215. It's not exactly the same but it's pretty close.
The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count
out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack.
Line-shaped walls: pick one corner of a square. Pick a corner of another square within range. Draw a line between those two points. If affects anything within any part of the square through which it passes.
Circular walls: pick a grid intersection as the center and figure out the radius. Only creatures in the outermost squares of the radius are considered "in the wall."
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Yeah, I deleted it ...
I agree, I deleted it (the spell). ;-)
To me, it seems to make a wall of fire-like spell that works with sound, but it is a badly thought attempt.
At the level at which it can be cast an archer can trigger the additional damage at least 4 times, Pellet blast (as Belafon pointed out) would trigger it several times. A scattergun will trigger it once for each pellet, considering that the equivalent of 00 buckshot will be used that means triggering the wall about 10 times.
The big problem of the spell is that to be different from "Wall of fire with sound" it did away with the constant damage and replaced it with a trigger that can be activated with ease a large number of times, making the spell decidedly unbalanced for its level.
I agree that a Pellet Blast or Archer firing a full-attack action's worth of arrows is grounds for blatant abuse, and that this spell ought to have been written better, and therefore is a prime candidate for a house rule of some kind. Personally, I haven't had any abuse with this spell from our group.
Anywho, I think this would be an appropriate house rule:
"No creature can trigger the Discordant Burst more than once per round, regardless of whether they hit it with pellet blast, buckshot, or 2+ arrows or objects, nor by forcing moving/repositioning a creature into the Wall multiple times, nor by forcing moving/repositioning multiple creatures into the Wall simultaneously, nor even performing a Swift + Standard + Move Action on their turn that would otherwise trigger two or more touching events. If you forcibly move a creature into the Wall, that counts as YOUR touch for the round, not the creature's touch for the round, for the purposes of the "no creature can trigger the Discordant Burst more than once per round" rule; if you forcibly move two+ creatures into the Wall simultaneously, it is that person's choice as to which creature triggers the Discordant Burst effect and this counts as YOUR touch for the round; you may pick either one of the forcibly-moved creatures as to which one triggers the Discordant Burst. Taking an action to Move Away from the Wall does not trigger the Discordant burst, but performing any Swift, Standard, Immediate, or Move action (such as to Cackle, draw a weapon, or retrieve a stored item) within the area of this spell does count as a "touch" and triggers the Discordant Burst. Some Free Actions may trigger it, such as Waving, but some Free Actions may not trigger it, such as Speaking (as to whether which actions count as a touch or not is subject to GM discretion). In case any given creature takes no actions while within the area of this spell, such as due to being paralyzed, incapacitated, or any other scenario where the creature takes no action to Move Away before ending their turn, then ending their turn within the area of this spell also counts as a "Touch" even though no actions were performed. A 5ft step also counts as a "touch" and triggers a Discordant Burst, but only if the 5ft step ends within the area of the spell- if you take a 5ft step to get out of the area of this spell, it does not count as a "touch" and does not trigger it. The "more than once per round" rule resets each turn at the start of their turn."
I think that this house rule keeps the spirit of the spell alive (1x burst per touching event) while also preventing any possible abuses with 1000d4-per-round-scenarios from multiple Pellet Blasts or Wonderstell's "Infinite Reposition" DPR Olympics-winning build that he came up with a couple years ago.
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If I decide to allow it, I will go for something shorter and more in line with the damage of Wall of fire:
Each of the two effects of Wall of sound will damage a creature only once during a round: once for 2d6+cl for passing through or touching the wall (and standing still in the wall is touching it) and once for the secondary damage (2d4) when the wall is triggered by other people or objects.
Our current group doesn't have anyone who shoots a bow , we have a Melee Bloodrager, a DPS Gunslinger who uses a Laser Rifle , a Conjuration (Teleportation) specialist Wizard, and a Geisha Bard.
The GM ruled that Lasers don't work on the wall before the PC chose this spell . This means we don't really have anyone on the field who would be likely to abuse it. We might occasionally be able to dish out loads of damage by being clever, but as a primary tactic it pales compared to a Laser Rifle, a Chainsaw, or a miriad of summoned creatures.
The PC who chose this spell is the Bard, and it's about her only direct damage spell.
Regarding those house rules, it's still a 4th level spell. Only being able to deal a maximum of 2d6+12 + 2d4 (~24) damage to a creature in a single round makes it seem ... not great.
I think that realising that it doesn't deal continuous damage will help balance this out.
How about: The 2d6+12 damage should only happen once per round - on the creature's turn, not the caster's - and should only happen if they take a Standard or Full-Round action while touching the wall . The 2d4 damage from being near the wall when it's touched seems fine as written. It is still subject to abuse, but is unlikely to be abused often since none of us have gear on hand to abuse it most of the time.
How does that sound?
Naturally, most of all, what your GM thinks is what matters. I suppose you will pass some of our opinions to him/her.
Yeah I'm gonna give him a basic rundown of what people here think, then link him to this thread.
Since none of us had ever used this spell before it brought up a lot of questions we couldn't really answer.
I think in the context on the night it was an incredibly powerful spell. Enemiies were grappled and/or confused, so they couldn't move, and some were blindly firing into the wall. This was really a combo of three level 4 spells though, so the damage and controll were probably appropriate for that. It's more about getting some solid guidelines so we can move forward without as much improvisation as we had to do the other night.
So ...
The spell doesn't deal continuous damage on the caster's turn .
It CAN potentially deal damage twice on the turn it's cast . This of course will only happen on the turn it's cast since the spell doesn't do continuous damage.
Also, if an enemy is within the wall I'd probably limit the 2d6+12 damage, so that it inly happens when that enemy takes a Standard or Full-Round action, and there would be some that don't trigger it (eg. Concentrating on a spell etc, it should be pretty obvious if they're not moving).
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Also, if an enemy is within the wall I'd probably limit the 2d6+12 damage, so that it inly happens when that enemy takes a Standard or Full-Round action, and there would be some that don't trigger it (eg. Concentrating on a spell etc, it should be pretty obvious if they're not moving).
I would make that standard/move action or full-round action. I.e. I would have it trigged if the "bisected" target moves away from the wall, not only if it acts while in it.
I would make that standard/move action or full-round action. I.e. I would have it trigged if the "bisected" target moves away from the wall, not only if it acts while in it.
The reason I didn't do that is because then an enemy who has this dropped on them automatically takes damage twice, even if the very first thing they do is move away .
I could be convinced Move Actions trigger it, but my guess is that the GM won't go for it. It seems reasonable that most Standard Actions would trigger it though (besides mental actions).
@MrCharisma
I would argue that potential abuse could occur if you allow a player or creature to remain within the Wall of Sound spell's area while not taking any damage for ending his turn within that area. If you're only taking mental actions, or simply not moving but still taking actions, you could theoretically stay inside the spell's area indefinitely and use it like a shield of some kind. Bonus points for "Maximum Abuse of the Year Award" if you get Sonic Resistance 10 somehow to absorb all the 2d4 hits from enemies' full attacks while they sit there and beat themselves to a pulp.
I mean, they could remain within the wall while taking only move actions without taking damage. I think you'd have to get pretty creative for that to be useful.
Also, you're not taking damage from just standing there, but the enemy could just start lobbing rocks at you, which would hit the wall and cause 2d4 damage to anyone nearby (eg. you).
Resist Energy would make someone immune to this spell at our level anyway, so if we're going that route it's hardly an exploit.
I mean, they could remain within the wall while taking only move actions without taking damage. I think you'd have to get pretty creative for that to be useful.
Also, you're not taking damage from just standing there, but the enemy could just start lobbing rocks at you, which would hit the wall and cause 2d4 damage to anyone nearby (eg. you).
Resist Energy woupd make someone immune to this spell at our level anyway, so if we're going that route it's hardly an exploit.
Tbh, your group sounds like a pretty cool party who wouldn't finagle their way to min/max abuse this spell, so honestly I don't think you guys need to create a bunch of stringent rules regarding this one spell. I have played with groups in the past who would act like that though, so I guess none of my aforementioned comments about house ruling this spell become relevant until your group crosses the line of abuse.
Yeah I don't think anyone in this group is likely to abuse anything.
The player who's using this spell is really new to Pathfinder, I basically made his character for him when he started, and when he levels up I give him a short-list of spells to choose from because the full list is a bit too much for him.
I think we've found a good middle ground =)
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Pizza Lord:
Are you aware of the rule on how spells without a width affect creatures? (It's written about a line-shaped spell, but it would apply to any shape that doesn't have a width.)
A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.
It helps to take a look at the line templates on that page (or the ones you linked). Visualize each as starting at the bottom left corner and being drawn as a single line to the top right corner of the template. All the squares have a line in them, but it doesn't take up anywhere near a full square.
If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything
within that square is unaffected by the spell.
However it is not true that spell effects have to follow gridlines. Otherwise a lightning bolt would be incapable of damaging a creature smaller than Large
I can see Pizza Lord's point, putting wall spells on grid-lines makes it easier to adjudicate, but that's why we have GM's ... to adjudicate.
It would be easier to say wall spells must be either north-south or east-west, but that's also totally unsatisfying. This is probably something where different groups will have different preferences, so make it as realistic or easy as suits you.
Personally, I don't like the "only on grid intersections" rule. In the end though, we've nominated a GM so we'll see what he decides.
Hey guys, I just wanted to say a big thanks to everyone who contributed here. Honestly this spell was WAY more complicated than I thought it would be.
My group has had a look at this thread, and the GM thanked me for looking into it. You guys have helped a lot.
Also, one of the players looked at this thread and sent me THIS ... but then also THIS.
Hey guys, I just wanted to say a big thanks to everyone who contributed here. Honestly this spell was WAY more complicated than I thought it would be.
My group has had a look at this thread, and the GM thanked me for looking into it. You guys have helped a lot.
Also, one of the players looked at this thread and sent me THIS ... but then also THIS.
Live footage of Me when someone calls me a Nerd (the JD showering in Dr. Cox's spit-filled yelling part) =)