Are corporations / companies legal within Absalom?

[Evil Paul]

The (albeit slightly out of date) Guide to Absalom states:

Quote:

Trade is handled by a different set of laws that

specifically forbids guilds and collusion among traders,
designed to ensure price-fixing does not occur. In the
ancient past of the city, a few major coalitions of investors
managed to briefly choke Absalom with exorbitant
prices on basic commodities. As a result, a single person
must be the legal owner of any goods offered for trade,
and no person may own more than one outlet for the
sale of such goods.

What does this mean for private companies in Absalom. The above would suggest that I cannot create a Blacksmith's chain that owns several smithies across town. Is that right?

What about non-trade companies? Can I own an investment company that buys and develops housing? Could that company be owned by multiple people?

How does this work for services companies? Are a group of friends allowed to run joint ownership of a company that sells exterminators who come and remove dire rats from people's basements? What about joint ownership of mercenary companies or shipping companies?

Do stocks and shares exist? (The real-world stock market is a late medieval invention, way earlier than the Victorian / renaissance "time period" of Absalom)

I'm prepping for Agents of Edgewatch and there doesn't seem to be anything in the campaign specifically about the above, in fact there are a number of places where it is suggested that companies/corporations exist.

I'm tempted to just ignore the book quote, and treat Absalom's corporate law similar to late 18th / early 19th century Britain / USA / Europe. Would that make sense or are there a specific changes that are important to explore within the vision for Absalom's economy?

[Brinebeast]

It feels like the spirit of the idea is that Absalom has laws to prevent monopolies and price-fixing. As long as these activities are not occurring in a way the is damaging to trade and city revenue, these laws may be lightly enforced.

I imagine that the terms "legal owner" and "outlet" have a fair amount of flexibility in how they are interpreted and applied. These terms may even have different definitions based on the industry in question.

If you plan to include monopolies and price-fixing as part of the campaign it may help to develop how the laws apply specifically to the industries highlighted in the campaign and gloss over the rest.

Hopefully this helps some, and good luck!

[Ixal]

Those are some very modern laws which in no way match the societies depicted in Pathfinder.

It also would not prevent price-fixing and old style guilds, meaning several persons, each owning one store, banding together, help each other out and make the life hard for people not in the guild.

[CrystalSeas]

Ixal wrote:

Those are some very modern laws which in no way match the societies depicted in Pathfinder.

It also would not prevent price-fixing and old style guilds, meaning several persons, each owning one store, banding together, help each other out and make the life hard for people not in the guild.

You're just wrong when you say in no way match the societies depicted in Pathfinder The laws are the laws of Absalom. They match what is depicted in Pathfinder 100%. Different Golarion societies have different laws, but there is at least one society that matches 100%.

You're also wrong that it would not prevent price-fixing. In English, "banding together" is the same as "collusion", which the laws specifically forbid. "Old-style guilds" are covered by this as well as the explicit "forbids guilds". It doesn't matter what 'style' your guild is. Guilds are explicitly forbidden.

[Mudfoot]

The rule that "no person may own more than one outlet for the sale of such goods" implies the existence of enormous department stores which are "one outlet". And a company group of associates might own several such places, each being a separate outlet under the ownership of a different person. They'd have to compete with each other in some way, but I can't see how one could effectively police it against price fixing.

"a single person must be the legal owner of any goods offered for trade" only applies at the time that the good is offered for trade. This implies that if you and your 9 shipmates have a cargo of 10 tons of grain, you just need to place it under the ownership of one person who owes each of the others 1 ton of grain.

Alternatively, each crew member can offer 1 ton (which he owns) while suggesting that he can get more grain from the others (which he can).

IN either case, I don't think this solves the problem (monopolism) it sets out to fix.

[Ixal]

CrystalSeas wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Those are some very modern laws which in no way match the societies depicted in Pathfinder.

It also would not prevent price-fixing and old style guilds, meaning several persons, each owning one store, banding together, help each other out and make the life hard for people not in the guild.

You're just wrong when you say in no way match the societies depicted in Pathfinder The laws are the laws of Absalom. They match what is depicted in Pathfinder 100%. Different Golarion societies have different laws, but there is at least one society that matches 100%.

You're also wrong that it would not prevent price-fixing. In English, "banding together" is the same as "collusion", which the laws specifically forbid. "Old-style guilds" are covered by this as well as the explicit "forbids guilds". It doesn't matter what 'style' your guild is. Guilds are explicitly forbidden.

Depending on how the law is written it forbids only trade guilds, but not guilds of craftsmen. Especially as craftsmen usually do not have outlets and certainly not multiple ones.

It is also impossible to enforce for foreign traders as without instant communication there is no way to check if a trade ship entering the harbor is owned by someone possessing multiple ships or not. For all intends and purposes the captain is the owner of both the ship (which is also the outlet) and the goods stored on it. And even when you give out certificates to check the allegiance of captains that system is very easy to bypass.
And if Absolom really blocks all tradeships from companies or families operating multiple ships they are hurting themselves a lot as it would mean that no big trader can do business in Absolom and the city loses its importance and geographic advantage and make Absolom into a backwater. Take for example grain, which Absolom would need a lot of. Any grain trader who owns two ships (aka outlets) would be forbidden from doing business in Absolom. Only small scale regional traders would be allowed to sell things there.

That would mean neither would exotic or high value goods reach Absolom, as the people with enough money to trade with them often own multiple ships or are part of a guild, nor would wealthy traders go to Absolom to buy because for the lack of said exotic goods and because they would need to pay in cash and not trade which was the usual way of trading when you had to rely on a hard currency.

Even the people who own multiple manufactories (dyeworks, etc.) are not really affected by it as even though they own several workshops, they can only have one outlet.
The entire idea of outlet doesn't fit, because to have multiple outlets (implying department stores) requires the capability for mass production and nothing in all shown material suggests that mass production exists on Golarion.

[CrystalSeas]

Ixal wrote:

Depending on how the law is written it forbids only trade guilds, but not guilds of craftsmen.

You can see how the law is written. It forbids guilds. No adjectives to say only certain guilds are forbidden. Anything that is a guild is forbidden

The rest is your head canon for your own private version of Golarion, which staff have told you repeatedly, is not Paizo's version. The rest of us are free to follow the rules Paizo uses.

[Dragonchess Player]

As defined in modern society, corporations and "trade guilds" (such as the historical textile guilds in Europe) are forbidden by law in Absalom. The restrictions ("a single person must be the legal owner of any goods offered for trade, and no person may own more than one outlet for the sale of such goods"), while curtailing more blatant and monopolies/oligopolies probably have issues with more subtle types of "collusion." I doubt any individual or group would be able to completely control a given commodity or type of goods, but there will probably be some with strong influence and loose associations sharing ethical mindsets or areas of interest. There may also be some hairsplitting involved in the definitions of "offered for sale/outlet for the sale:" such as a manufacturer/shipper operating on a consignment basis with another who actually "offers" the goods for sale at an "outlet"; multiple outlets for different goods may or may not be an issue, depending on the legal interpretation (such as owning both an outlet to sell grain and an outlet to sell metalwork).

Even with the stated restrictions, "family businesses" can probably be quite large. Also, historically speaking, such enterprises are usually "owned" by the family matriarch/patriarch; often chosen from among the larger family instead of directly inherited by the eldest direct descendent.

As far as business ventures go, pooling of capital investments for specific activities are probably OK, as long as the ownership of the specific goods involved is legally clear and the limitation on number of outlets is observed. Again, historically speaking, many "trade cartels" were often formed for specific trade runs to 1) make it easier to afford the initial costs and 2) reduce the financial exposure of a single individual/family.

The service economy laws may not necessarily follow the same structure as the commodities/goods laws.

[Ixal]

CrystalSeas wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Depending on how the law is written it forbids only trade guilds, but not guilds of craftsmen.

You can see how the law is written. It forbids guilds. No adjectives to say only certain guilds are forbidden. Anything that is a guild is forbidden

The rest is your head canon for your own private version of Golarion, which staff have told you repeatedly, is not Paizo's version. The rest of us are free to follow the rules Paizo uses.

Everyone is free to follow whatever rules they want. You for example can just nod at background information and then head straight into the next dungeon, not caring about them anymore as they have no relevance to your game.

Others can make logical conclusions about what those background information means for the setting which also includes noticing when two pieces of background information, for example this law and Absoloms status as trade city, are at odds with each other and try to reconcile this.

[Evil Paul]

Brinebeast wrote:

It feels like the spirit of the idea is that Absalom has laws to prevent monopolies and price-fixing. As long as these activities are not occurring in a way the is damaging to trade and city revenue, these laws may be lightly enforced.

I think this is the best approach. I'm not interested in understanding the minuatae of business law within Absalom. That doesn't help us tell stories (usually). But I think that something like whether a person can own two shops or businesses, or whether a shop or business can be owned by two people is significant and high-level enough that it needs to be understood (especially in an AP where the PCs are all policeman).

My take is that is not the case. (In particular Mudfoot points out how it wouldn't work anyway, as ownership can be edited at point of sale). Absalom is a city of trade. Its real-world influences are a mix of London, New York, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Companies, Banking, Markets (and Stock Markets), Services, Commodities and Goods - all these are essential in creating a 'trade goliath' which is what Absalom is. The city is likely to have all of these elements, and it's laws (by it's oligarchy rulers) will be designed to ensure the trade engine continues to spin.

Therefore corporations / companies / trade agreements are all possible, and all exist in Absalom. There are just some price-fixing and anti-monopoly laws that can be brought to bear if needed, to ensure the engine doesn't stall.

[Ixal]

Evil Paul wrote:

Brinebeast wrote:

It feels like the spirit of the idea is that Absalom has laws to prevent monopolies and price-fixing. As long as these activities are not occurring in a way the is damaging to trade and city revenue, these laws may be lightly enforced.

I think this is the best approach. I'm not interested in understanding the minuatae of business law within Absalom. That doesn't help us tell stories (usually). But I think that something like whether a person can own two shops or businesses, or whether a shop or business can be owned by two people is significant and high-level enough that it needs to be understood (especially in an AP where the PCs are all policeman).

My take is that is not the case. (In particular Mudfoot points out how it wouldn't work anyway, as ownership can be edited at point of sale). Absalom is a city of trade. Its real-world influences are a mix of London, New York, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Companies, Banking, Markets (and Stock Markets), Services, Commodities and Goods - all these are essential in creating a 'trade goliath' which is what Absalom is. The city is likely to have all of these elements, and it's laws (by it's oligarchy rulers) will be designed to ensure the trade engine continues to spin.

Therefore corporations / companies / trade agreements are all possible, and all exist in Absalom. There are just some price-fixing and anti-monopoly laws that can be brought to bear if needed, to ensure the engine doesn't stall.

Exactly. To be a city of trade, which Absolom is supposed to be, you can't keep the traders out by forbidding them to sell things.

You can restrict them when you have something they value a lot and thus are still willing to engage in trade (see Ming or Qing dynasty China or Japan in the same timeframe).
Does Absolom has something like that? I do not see it.

Instead Absolom must be attractive to traders because of location and laws. The more trader come and sell things to you, the more traders will come to buy as they can be sure to find what they want in Absolom and not go instead to Almas or Sothis. Its a bit like real world Singapore.

One idea is that this law is not enforced and instead is more of a threat in case the trade consortiums are going too far.

[Ixal]

CrystalSeas wrote:

Ixal wrote:

Depending on how the law is written it forbids only trade guilds, but not guilds of craftsmen.

You can see how the law is written. It forbids guilds. No adjectives to say only certain guilds are forbidden. Anything that is a guild is forbidden

The rest is your head canon for your own private version of Golarion, which staff have told you repeatedly, is not Paizo's version. The rest of us are free to follow the rules Paizo uses.

By the way, to quote the various wikis for Pathfinder which reference the Guide to Absolom

"While craftsmen and laborers are organized into guilds that provide legal and illegal products and services, traders are prohibited from organizing to prevent collusion and price-fixing."

So only trade guilds are forbidden.

Also from the wiki&guide
"the city's rulers strive to craft policies favorable to commerce (and their own interests), but otherwise take a relatively laissez-faire approach to regulation"

Which would directly contradict a hard law against traders. Which supports the idea that this law is not enforced much and is only used as a threat against trade companies and guilds which do business in Absolom, but otherwise do not prevent foreign trade guilds to do business there even though they technically violate the law.

[Evil Paul]

I agree, that doesn't make sense. Guilds are not just price-fixing schemes, nor are they just labour unions. Guilds set standards across their trade, which benefits buyers (knowing a level of quality) and sellers (as a central hub for buyers).

You're importing 500 tons of Jalmerayan spices to sell across the Inner Sea region. Do you buy from random ship captains selling boxes of Abadar-knows-what (probably laced with sawdust) or do you buy from the Absalom Spicing Guild?

If guilds don't exist, then who sets standards? It could be the state, but Absalom tacks towards Libertarianism not Statism. The state is small and largely gets out of the way. And if standards don't exist, then why buy in Absalom? You'll just get ripped off.