I've gone back and read the previous discussions on what does and doesn't apply to Battle Forms when using something like the Animal Form spell, and I lean on the side of: Abilities that add additional dice or effects work. Examples are Sneak Attack and Fighter's Intimidating Strike.
I don't think +1 striking flaming handwraps add their fire damage to something like an Animal Form bite (or any AF attack), because you're not using your gear anymore. I'm not referring to using your attack bonus if higher. I think that's separate. I'm open to changing my mind on this if someone has some references.
My question is how feats like Power Attack or Grievous Blow should work if your base attack is two dice like a 2d6 Animal Form bite for example. If you Power Attack at L4, would you do 4d6? Then at L10, 6d6?
What are folks opinions on these dice adding scenarios both from items and abilities?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you're in a battle form with a 2d6 strike, and use power attack to add one die, you get 3d6. Nothing suggests that you would ever add an increment of 2d6 instead.
I get a kind of suggestion. All weapons in the CRB are single die, so Power Attack to me has always seemed like the understood intent was to double base damage. 2Actions = 2x base dmg. There's no 2dice weapon to account for in the writing, so maybe they were lax on Power Attack's language for handling other forms?
Then there's the general sensibility suggestion. A 2d6 weapon is more powerful than a 1d8, but if you don't double the dice, Power Attack increases 2d6 by only 3.5 while it increases 1d8 by 4.5 avg.
That's what's going through my head on this one. I don't have a strong opinion on this one. On one hand I don't think it breaks Battle Forms. On the other, I'm curious what others have thought. So, HammerJack, you're on the single die addition regardless?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yup. A die is single die. They're only ever defined as a single die. The sizes they come in are only listed as single dice. If some attacks could use multiple die increments and multiply them that way, something would be said, somewhere.
|
Continuous effects from your gear still apply. Flaming is additional damage added on top of Strikes you make, so it doesn't change anything about the statistics, just adds to it. Similarly to a Barbarian's rage damage still applying if they take on a battle form, it's additional damage and doesn't actually "change" anything.
If you use an ability to add dice, you add that many as normal. If you have a Striking bastard sword and used power attack you still only add one dice not two. The "base" from a battle form is still 2 damage dice, and caps out at 4 damage dice just like striking weapons (Not counting 10th level versions). It tries to match the normal scaling you would have from striking weapons, it doesn't change any rules about the number of damage dice.
The "base" from a battle form is still 2 damage dice, and caps out at 4 damage dice just like striking weapons (Not counting 10th level versions). It tries to match the normal scaling you would have from striking weapons, it doesn't change any rules about the number of damage dice.
That doesn't appear to be the dynamic. The dice are all over the place, and the top one Monstrosity Form's 9th level version does 3d12+20 with its jaws and 5d8+10 with its Spine Rake.
Playing devil's advocate here. Let's look at Animal Form - Cat. It has two attacks: jaws 2d6 and claw 1d10. Jaws is the more powerful attack. With L10 Power Attack, if you don't add two d6's, Claws at 3d10 (16.5) becomes more powerful than jaws at 4d6 (14). It gets worse at L18 where Power Attack grants a third extra die for 4d10 (22) vs 5d6 (18.5). That's where the ruling of treating 2d6 like a d6 for purposes of additional die damage breaks down for me. It would make more sense if it means to double the dice like the Battle Form spells say.
|
|
Well the same could be said about a simple Battle Axe with its d12, except that will have base 2d12 at 10 and 3d12 and 15. You're comparing high level abilities with a low level spell. If you actually scaled Animal Form too, you would have base 4d6 and 2d10 at level 18 when you Power Attack, which is an average of 24.5 vs 27.5. Sure it's still slightly off but not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Power Attack will always favor greater damage die.
Also, at level 18 simply using a Greater Striking Battleaxe would do 39 average with Power Attack. Just saying.
Oh and Spine Rake isn't a strike, meaning you can't Power Attack with it, and it grants a Reflex save. Abilities like this follow totally different rules, so you can't really compare them can you?
I'm not following what you're trying to show, Cordell. I appreciate the effort though.
I don't think +1 striking flaming handwraps add their fire damage to something like an Animal Form bite (or any AF attack), because you're not using your gear anymore. I'm not referring to using your attack bonus if higher. I think that's separate. I'm open to changing my mind on this if someone has some references.
The rules say
a)Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items So all your gear and items start out being allowed, but you can't activate things like wands etc.b) But they specify your AC and attack bonus so you can't modify those with an item bonus.
So your gear does all work. There are just some specified things in the spell that don't.
The base damage dice of your attack is specified. So Striking Runes do not add extra dice here.
But additional damage is something extra - its not modifying the base damage of the attack - so it does add.
Power Attack is something extra - so it adds.
Yes it is messy. The weapon dice of the attack can't be changed, but you can add extra dice that aren't weapon dice just extras.
It is not a 100% rules lock as Paizo have not defined additional damage anywhere even though it shows up 50+ times in the core rule book. There is no additional damage clearly defined in the damage formula. All we know is that Mark insists that it is not a damage bonus.
Playing devil's advocate here. Let's look at Animal Form - Cat. It has two attacks: jaws 2d6 and claw 1d10. Jaws is the more powerful attack. With L10 Power Attack, if you don't add two d6's, Claws at 3d10 (16.5) becomes more powerful than jaws at 4d6 (14). It gets worse at L18 where Power Attack grants a third extra die for 4d10 (22) vs 5d6 (18.5). That's where the ruling of treating 2d6 like a d6 for purposes of additional die damage breaks down for me. It would make more sense if it means to double the dice like the Battle Form spells say.
Yes power attack is better value for the forms that have fewer but larger dice So there are some odd breaks here. Power attack gets more dice at different levels so the optimal approach will vary.
Personally I don't mind that there is no one optimal form for every situation. If you really like power attack then you may choose a different option to someone who doesn't want to invest in it.
Thanks, Gortle. That makes sense with your references. I'm still having trouble reconciling the interaction of a base 2d6 attack with the feats that add dice. I've changed my mind on flaming wraps, but I'm leaning towards treating "2d6" as the die that gets added.
I don't think any of this breaks Battle Forms, but I like to imagine I'm forming reasonable opinions influenced by community discussion when rules get foggy.
|
Vordell tried to compare the benefit of power attack to doing power attack at different levels - assumning you have striking runes.
The problem with battle form and power attack isn't that 2d6 is doubled. The problem comes later
Use the Avatar spell and suddenly you ask to get 6d8 to be doubled.
Weapon runes
Level 1: none = 1 die -> 2 with Power attack
Level 4: Striking = 2 die -> 3 with power attack
Level 12: Greater Striking 3 die -> 4 with power attack
Level 19: Major Striking 4 die -> 5 with power attack
So power attack at level 19 gives you max 5d12 - not 8 d12.
Now look at polymorph spells
Spells:
Level 3: Animal form 2 dice
Level 5: Insect Form 2 dice
Level 7: Dinosaur Form 2 dice
Level 9: Plant Form: 2 dice
Level 11: Dragon Form 3 dice
Level 19: Avatar 6 dice
Level 19: Nature Incarnate 6 dice
Keep in mind - the dice size does go up from Animal Form to Plant Form. So doubling it would become an issue at higher levels as you get a progressively higher number of dice which get doubled.
Hmm, looking at it from that angle does make it more difficult to justify doubling, Thod. I will give that some more analysis. Thanks.
[QUOTE="Thod
Weapon runes
Level 1: none = 1 die -> 2 with Power attack
Level 4: Striking = 2 die -> 3 with power attack
Level 12: Greater Striking 3 die -> 4 with power attack
Level 19: Major Striking 4 die -> 5 with power attack
So power attack at level 19 gives you max 5d12 - not 8 d12.
Please reread Power Attack If this Strike hits, you deal an extra die of weapon damage. If you’re at least 10th level, increase this to two extra dice, and if you’re at least 18th level, increase it to three extra dice.
Level 1: none = 1 die -> 2 with Power attack
Level 4: Striking = 2 die -> 3 with power attack
Level 10: Striking = 2 die -> 4 with power attack
Level 12: Greater Striking 3 die -> 5 with power attack
Level 18: Greater Striking 3 die -> 6 with power attack
Level 19: Major Striking 4 die -> 7 with power attack