How big can symbols be for symbol spells (symbol of healing, death, etc.)?


Rules Questions


I am wondering how large of an area of effect a symbol spell can effectively cover. Have seen Full Metal Alchemist, and some make enormous symbols for their transmutation circles (size of city blocks, whole cities, countries, etc.) Question is, how large of an area can a singular symbol spell cover? Can someone make a symbol the size of a city block, and have its effective area be the city block + 60ft burst?

Symbol of Death reads: "This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. When triggered, a symbol of death kills one or more creatures within 60 feet of the symbol (treat as a burst)..." So, RAW (and probably RAI) it seems that the area of effect for the spell is the same as a burst spell for a creature, the larger the creature, the larger the effected area (as clarified in https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t0g.) The casting time is 10 minutes, that is a lot of time to make a symbol (or potentially just fill in the gap of a symbol you mostly finished in preparation). Is there anything wrong with this interpretation of making enormous symbols to increase spell effect?


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No, you would always draw from center of the burst, because it's a radius spell and technically radius spells don't originate from anywhere except the corner of a square. It's not placed on an object (although objects have surfaces) so object size is irrelevant. While theoretically, you could make the symbol any size you want, even bigger than the radius, it triggers as soon as someone glimpses the symbol, so all your size changing does is shape when someone is likely to activate the spell.


There's no RAW I can find specific to the size of the rune/symbol inscribed by the casting of a Symbol of Death spell. However, in the Traps section of the PFSRD, Symbol spells are called out as a magical trap. In this instance, the rune itself is both the trap and the "trigger" mechanism. With traps, triggers occupy a single square, so I would then assume that a Symbol spell such as Symbol of Death used as a kind of trap would only occupy a surface up to 5' x 5'.


There's nothing specific about it. You can infer some limitations from casting time of 10 minutes and the inability to move while casting a spell. I suppose a creature with long enough limbs could make the spell quite large, you could possess a whaler jellyfish and scribe a symbol spell of 150ft, but I don't think you could make one much bigger.

The "plain sight" and "prominent location" requirements potentially restrict the spell's size based on visibility in the area. FMA's underground symbol wouldn't be within the standard symbol spell restrictions.

I'd expect extreme table variation.

Liberty's Edge

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AwesomenessDog gave the correct reply, it is all in the CRB:

CRB wrote:

When triggered, a symbol of death kills one or more creatures within 60 feet of the symbol (treat as a burst) whose combined total current hit points do not exceed 150.

....

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

....

The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.


It seems pretty unanimous that increasing size of the symbol does not increase the area it covers.
Follow up questions:
1) If you put the symbol on a movable object (shield, cart, potato, etc.) does the area influenced by the spell change as the object moves?
2) Can you make the symbol out of something more resilient like chiselling the symbol into stone, or making a symbol out of bronze?
Thanks


1) It mentions putting a symbol on an item, but that it doesn't work if used offensively (for instance, putting it on a potato and having the trigger being it's touched, and then throwing that potato at someone). So yes, you can put it on a movable object and the area would be determined by the position of that object

2) the symbol itself is a magical construct, you can put it onto any surface, but if that surface is destroyed it triggers the symbol. So you can put it onto something resilient like stone or bronze or even adamantine, doesn't matter. Destroying/dispelling the symbol takes a Trapfinding rogue or dispel magic to get rid of the actual symbol without triggering it.

You could also put it on paper and then toss it in a fire and trigger the symbol that way by that reading, which kind of clashes with the "can't use an object offensively to trigger a symbol" rule stated above. Symbol of Death on a weapon with the fragile quality?


You can't use it offensively at all. That would prevent pre-activating the symbol and then moving the area of effect. I assume it stays where it was activated. While not specifically prohibited, placing the symbol on a water balloon and throwing it at someone to use the "when the surface is destroyed" activation method also wouldn't work as that would qualify as using it offensively.

The symbol can't be destroyed except by magic, so it's resilience is effectively unlimited. The surface that its inscribed on can be destroyed though. If you want to make it resilient, then you put it on something resilient.

Liberty's Edge

Vodoff wrote:

It seems pretty unanimous that increasing size of the symbol does not increase the area it covers.

Follow up questions:
1) If you put the symbol on a movable object (shield, cart, potato, etc.) does the area influenced by the spell change as the object moves?
2) Can you make the symbol out of something more resilient like chiselling the symbol into stone, or making a symbol out of bronze?
Thanks
Quote:
Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally.

1) As it requires a "prominent location" I would say that potatoes and shields are not allowed.

A cart is a maybe. I would say that you need something like a [uel=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroccio]Carroccio[/url], or the prow or castle of a pirate ship (I had the idea of having a pirate ship with a permanent Symbol of Fear on the prow and an attuned crew, but never used it).
Generally, you need a fixed structure. And be thankful of that, or dragons carrying a banner with a Symbol of Insanity would be a common war machine.

2) More resilent to what?
Dispel magic will work regardless of the medium used.
Same for disable device.
Same for erase.

There is no option to remove it by smudging the Symbol unless you have Disable Device and Trapfinding, AFAIK, so "breaking" it isn't a problem.

For role-playing purposes I would say that permanent symbols are made with durable materials, but that has no in game effects.


Diego Rossi wrote:

1) As it requires a "prominent location" I would say that potatoes and shields are not allowed.

it says to be effective, not to function. If that potato or shield is prominently placed, it would work and be effective, if that shield is in the corner covered in cobwebs or the potato in a pile of its fellow spuds, not so much.

.
Quote:


2) More resilent to what?
Dispel magic will work regardless of the medium used.
Same for disable device.
Same for erase.

erase is specifically listed as not effecting Symbol spells.


Keep in mind symbols always trigger on sighting of the symbol in part or in totality. A trapfinding rogue that isn't blinded will trigger the symbol as part of free spot check.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Keep in mind symbols always trigger on sighting of the symbol in part or in totality. A trapfinding rogue that isn't blinded will trigger the symbol as part of free spot check.

Not so automatic.

1) "Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can't trigger it"
So if there is enough room (generally improbable) and the rogue can spot it (a -6 for the distance probably will not be the problem for that), it can be detected in time. Then the problem is recognizing what will trigger it.

2) "one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune". seeing the rune is only one of the possible triggers.


Ah. I've only seen it be used as "sees/looks at it" so that you don't get the chance to remove it.

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