So whilst trying to sleep last night, my mind wanders, as it often does, to pathfinder and to most recently an NPC Master Summoner BBEG I had made and how fun he would be to run in that role, essentially providing an entire adventure's worth of encounters all by his lonesome. Then I thought if that would be a fun character to actually play in a game, and I came to the swift decision that no...no it wouldn't. Too many things to keep track of, too much board time for one player (we've already got 7 players in our current game, and I'm loving my current Vital Strike build as it means I'm done with my turn in about 15 seconds).
Then instead of sleeping, my mind started to try and problem solve this. In other game systems, I love to attach NPCs/Pets/Sidekicks to parties, but I always strive to not out shine or take away from the PC spotlight, so I normally use some variation of a rule I first made for Earthdawn for such cases, where such tagalongs provide bonuses to the PCs due to their presence, granting attack, damage, spellcasting, defense, or armor bonuses to simulate them soaking up some attacks, aiding the main characters, participating in some spell, etc...
So I thought that something like that might work for a mass summoner like the Master Summoner. With hazy sleepy math I came up with; each summoned creature can provide either a +2 bonus +1 per three levels of the Summon Monster spell used to get them there to Attack or AC and a damage bonus of 1d6 +1d6 per three levels of the Summon Monster spell to one friendly character. So a 1st level Summoned Monster would give a +2 to either Attack or AC and +1d6 damage, while a 9th level Summoned Monster would give +5 and +4d6.
I think that seems fair, keeps things simple and fast (which is really the point of this entire exercise) and lets the PCs be more in control and while letting the Summoner REALLY excel at buffing.
I'm a little stuck though on how to treat them if they were to be targeted, while trying to keep the same simple and fast principle in place. I guess it would be easy enough to just use the stats for the monsters if they were attacked, but I like the idea of never having to crack open a bestiary for the Summoner. So with all that said; thoughts, opinions, recommendations?
I assume that you mean the monster would be doing this instead of taking its own actions. We already have spells that give buffs though.
I think what you’d rather have is limitations on the summoning. First, just get rid of the option to summon multiples. Instead of summoning multiple monsters from a lower list, you can summon from a lower list and put the advanced or giant template on those creatures.
If you want to limit further then have summoning require an action to upkeep every following round, either a move or standard action depending on how much impact you want that change to make. And since you are making the summoning more difficult, you might give the creature some minor bonus like a bonus to damage based on your casting stat modifier.
what I like is a way to simulate a bunch of summoned monsters without the upkeep and table time it takes to actually run them all. So giving bonuses to the PCs for their involvement (making them essentially a buff) handles that. Narratively, the room is filled with the summoned minions who are gnashing, casting, getting stabbed, etc...mechanically though, they are providing bonuses to the PCs as they help out. Taking the time it takes to move into position, attack, roll damage, get attacked, track damage taken, etc out of the equation. So instead of making an attack at +9 for 1d8+9 and everything that comes before and after it, the monsters "action" is essentially added onto a PC, letting an actual player shine while still keeping the summons useful.
I'd like for there still to be hordes of monsters a Master Summoner can bring forth, but I don't like the actual play of it, as a PC of course.
How "there" are the summons? Do they still take up space? Do they threaten for flanking? Attacks of opportunity? Do they take damage?
the bonuses they give kind of assume flanking, aid another, etc. And those same bonuses would be in effect for AoO. As for taking up a space, given that this would be handwaving mechanics for simplicity (really moving into combat as an abstract here), them having a square on the board would probabbly have to be nixed as well, otherwise you'd end up with weird roadblock creatures that are in the way, but not actively contributing to anything, as in making their own attacks.
As for taking damage, that was the part I was kind of stuck on. I thought about a pool of hitpoints they could give based on the level of the summon spell used in their summoning and do a shield other effect and once that is gone, the creature is gone as well. Or maybe a DR like Stoneskin would be better, they take off a little bit, and once they hit that maximum amount taken, they poof!?
In other systems I've used something like this with, those systems aren't as tactical as Pathfinder, with spacing and all that, so taking up space was never an issue and as the GM, if a cohort needed to be targeted for reasons, then they'd be injured/killed at my whim or they'd soak up a certain amount of damage per hit until they were rendered uncon, out of the fight or dead. But now I'm looking at this sort of house rule from the players side and wanted something more concrete.
I'd like to point out that giving +2 to attack is something a summoned monster can often do, just by being placed into a flanking position. And they can do that in addition to all of the other benefits they often bring. An intelligent summon could use aid another in addition to flanking in addition to all of the things they normally do.
I just think it's really going to be hard to create a parity with the system you are wanting to create. If you're fine with this being a straight nerf, then I guess that's fine, but I doubt you'll find many players interested in playing with it.
I'd be interested in playing it...
I mean Summoner and summoner Druids are pretty much banned at our table currently because of the time it takes to run them, again considering we already have 7 players and most of them are...not very good at the maths let us say, so turns can take several minutes.
as for the bonuses, again those were near-sleep figures I came up with, but they do scale depending on the power of the creature, and while it can provide a bonus to hit or AC, I think the damage boost would be the most beneficial change to them.
so yeah, they're not going to be as straight up effective as summoning some things (though that's arguable depending on builds/feats), but I'm willing to trade that for ease and speed of play. Just want to find a "sweet spot" for what a summoned creature is worth in a fight mathematically and give that to a PC or PCs
Also, how does this work with summoning feats? What does augment summoning do? Expanded Summon Monster? Evolved Summon Monster? Are those feats all made worthless?
How would it work with something like a monster tactician giving feats to his summoned monsters?
What about healing? Can you not use your summoned creatures to heal either?
Much of the advantage of summoned monsters is in being where the caster isn't, or doing things the caster can't.
I'm talking about tackling the archer or wizard hiding behind his meat shields, or on that ship, or on the other side of the pit, or on the castle wall, or being a meat shield, or flanking for the rogue.
Or abilities like flight, fire resistance, grapple, swimming and spellcasting.
I think your pseudo-summoning would lose most of its value, and certainly most of its interest.
Also, how does this work with summoning feats? What does augment summoning do? Expanded Summon Monster? Evolved Summon Monster? Are those feats all made worthless?
How would it work with something like a monster tactician giving feats to his summoned monsters?
What about healing? Can you not use your summoned creatures to heal either?
Some feats could be modified, so like Augment Summoning might increase the attack and damage bonus as well as the pool of hit points they could give to PCs. Others would just have to be scrapped.
As for Monster Tactician, maybe those teamwork feats could be given to the PC the summoned creature is "tagged" too?
As for individual abilities, that is the one area that I think the power imbalance of the actual creature vs the advantages of speed of play really starts to widen. I've never scoured the Summon Monster list to see what sort of SLAs exist. I know with recently building the badguy master summoner, some of the higher level angels have some healing spells, but I think the Astral Deva was about the best I saw and that's only 7 cure light wounds a day, which pretty much means nothing by the time you can cast Summon Monster IX, though they do have 1 Heal, which isn't bad. But the bonus hit points pool they give could narratively explained as healing effects as well as them just soaking up hits in combat.
Much of the advantage of summoned monsters is in being where the caster isn't, or doing things the caster can't.
I'm talking about tackling the archer or wizard hiding behind his meat shields, or on that ship, or on the other side of the pit, or on the castle wall, or being a meat shield, or flanking for the rogue.
Or abilities like flight, fire resistance, grapple, swimming and spellcasting.
I think your pseudo-summoning would lose most of its value, and certainly most of its interest.
since I'm discussing a house rule for my own table in which summoning is already banned, any alternative is better.
This isn't a discussion on how to fix summoning in general, this is addressing a specific issue with it as concerns my group. If someone were to want to play someone with summoning abilities, I'd like to offer them a system that they could actually handle and that wouldn't bog down play with dice rolling or worse still a glut of creature and action choices each round. That is going to require the sacrifice of a lot of the versatility of summon spells, but again the alternative means they just don't get to be used at all.
and before anyone offers up suggestions on how to speed up play for them while using the normal rules; I REALLY wish my fellow players could handle them, they've all been tried, they have all failed.