Encounter design with grappling foes

[Mark Hoover 330]

So lots of monsters in PF1 have the Grab ability and are meant to be effective as grappling foes. We've seen it in TV and movies, where a creature lunges from the darkness and wraps a good guy up in it's grip trying to drag them away or strangle them, while the heroes look on in horror!

Only, PF1 has specific mechanics and action economy. In this advice thread, I'm specifically looking for help designing encounters that feature a grappling foe pitted against a party of adventurers.

Now I get that a single opponent against 4 is already poor design. Action economy dictates that the PCs can all pile on against this singular opponent. But even in a mixed group of foes, a single grappling opponent is hard to understand as effective.

In order to grapple you have to 1. attack and hit your opponent, using at least your Standard action, then 2. successfully initiate the grapple. Any special effects, such as small weapon or natural attacks, moving an opponent, pinning, etc. come in successive rounds, meaning the grappler needs to maintain said grapple against their opponent.

I struggle to understand how to use this combat maneuver effectively when you have for PCs and a single grappler in the battle. Your one monster has locked themselves into a single course of actions that eats up all they can do, meaning that even if you have other monsters/hazards in the fight, those have to be effective enough to stand in for the threat this grappler posed in the battle, right?

[Pootisman]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So lots of monsters in PF1 have the Grab ability and are meant to be effective as grappling foes. We've seen it in TV and movies, where a creature lunges from the darkness and wraps a good guy up in it's grip trying to drag them away or strangle them, while the heroes look on in horror!

Only, PF1 has specific mechanics and action economy. In this advice thread, I'm specifically looking for help designing encounters that feature a grappling foe pitted against a party of adventurers.

Now I get that a single opponent against 4 is already poor design. Action economy dictates that the PCs can all pile on against this singular opponent. But even in a mixed group of foes, a single grappling opponent is hard to understand as effective.

In order to grapple you have to 1. attack and hit your opponent, using at least your Standard action, then 2. successfully initiate the grapple. Any special effects, such as small weapon or natural attacks, moving an opponent, pinning, etc. come in successive rounds, meaning the grappler needs to maintain said grapple against their opponent.

I struggle to understand how to use this combat maneuver effectively when you have for PCs and a single grappler in the battle. Your one monster has locked themselves into a single course of actions that eats up all they can do, meaning that even if you have other monsters/hazards in the fight, those have to be effective enough to stand in for the threat this grappler posed in the battle, right?

Depends on the monster, for example there are monsters (such as giant ants) that can bite an opponent, grab them (free action) and as a free action try to hold the grapple (with a -20 penalty).

Usually monsters that are meant to be very strong tend to have a huge grappling bonus (to compensate the -20 and thus being able to attack the PC's while holding one reliably) and have other abilities associated with grapple such as swallow whole or constrict.

If a monster just have "grab" with a relatively low CMB bonus then it's probably supposed to be an expendable mook (Example: Giant soldier ant)

[yukongil]

unless you're a multi-armed thing, it's really hard. You need something with multiple attacks, the Grab ability, and then constrict and/or swallow whole.

Try and find a creature with enough attacks each round to attack 3/4 of the party or so with a good CMB check and the above. The remaining players get the fun of deciding the best course of action to help; kill the monster or try and free their comrades.

If you are instead going for a more humanoid encounter, try Grabbing Style, it will negate the penalty for grabbing with one hand. I like a giant with this, who grabs up PCs and then uses rock throwing with them to yeet them out of combat for several rounds so they can focus on the remaining. It's the only way to really make up for action economy.

Otherwise, just add more things with grab, fighting one thing is pretty tedious most of the time and lacks any real challenge for a half-way competent team.

[Hugo Rune]

One angle you could go for is the grab and run away. If the creature's has the grab ability then they can avoid being grappled themselves whilst grappling their opponent. So they pick up one of the party members and run away with them.

[Quixote]

I mean, it depends. A constrictor snake is an ambush predator that was really only ever intended to deal with one opponent at a time. Pathfinder's representation of them gets that much right.

But a fantasy-style tentacled horror is a whole different animal (literally). Snatch up that archer or wizard to shut down their most viable options. Grab the barbarian or rogue to drag them into the water.
Surprise round: grab. Initiative: cause mayhem and panic.

As you said above, 1v4 encounters are already bad. So avoid them whenever possible. And even worse are encounters on flat, featureless grids. Throw in some dark, scummy water, giant leeches or schools of carnivorous fish, stands of sawgrass and tangled creeper vines and quicksand...and then the giant octopus thing.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Right now I'm designing a level 1 underground adventure, using rough-hewn caves. While I can narratively describe a 3-dimensional space, play on the vertical plane as opposed to the horizontal becomes difficult when dealing with a battle mat and minis..

That's challenge no. 1. No. 2 is that I wanted to use Chokers as the "brute" villains of the piece. These are CR 2 monsters that have 2 tentacle attacks, grab and constrict. However they're Small size and deal very low damage so it is unlikely to kill a PC outright, even at this level.

An encounter I planned was a choker attacking the party from above then using it's Quickness ability and Climb speed to drag a PC up the cave walls into its cramped lair area. If however it wanted to Grab the PC and keep them grappled without getting tied up themselves, the Choker's Grapple CMB drops to -8. THEN you've got the movement and encumbrance rules.

Chokers have a Str of 16, so even if just looking at Lifting/Dragging, the choker's Medium Load is between 57.75 to 114.75 lbs so their speed is 15, climb speed is a 5. The Choker can easily Drag a foe with it, but ascending the wall over the course of 2 Move actions (thanks to Quickness) means it's moving 10'. All that movement while trying to maintain a grapple with CMB -8. Yikes.

I think I either need to find other monsters to keep PCs occupied or pair the Choker with a Sorcerer 1 ally that casts Ant Haul on the monster.

[Quixote]

Challenge 1: I've drawn up a simple side-map of the vertical space to good effect in the past. Doesn't work with tactical movement in the open air, but on cliff faces and cavern walls it does just the trick.

Challenge 2: chokers are ambush predators that are clearly designed to target one foe at a time. Such a creature would never attack a whole group of adventurers. They ought to be setting up shop next to another threat. Wait for the targets to get involved in a dangerous, distracting situation and then nab the last one in line so no one even notices they're gone.

How about some giant spiders or something? Webs to entangle, venom to make escaping (the webs or the choker) harder. Throw in a hazard--a fissure in the floor or a portcullis trap to divide the party, or some brown mold to soak up any tasty fire the party uses to burn the webs?

As for the chokers stats, I wouldn't sweat it. For one, don't take the -20. It grabs an opponent and becomes grappled in turn. That's fine. It's after a meal, not a fight, so all it cares about is holding on and getting away to quietly murder their one target.
And two, why isn't it's lair within one turn of encumbered movement? Besides, the encumbrance ruled are for equipment, no? He's not putting you in his backpack, he's dragging you along the ground. A narrow crack in the cavern walls about 10ft off the ground sounds perfect; it's prey is in range of it's grabbers and it would take at least a turn for anyone to get up there to help, where they'll be pretty limited in what kind of help they can provide.

[Mark Hoover 330]

LOL, I'm trying to challenge the level 1 PCs, not straight-up murder them. 1 giant spider, well played, is a CR 1 threat. Then you've got monsters that have a Climb speed and plenty of vertical space for them to take advantage of; +1 to the CR. Then tossing in some patches of Brown Mold (CR 2 hazard) or a CR 2 equivalent fissure, now we've got a CR 4 fight. THEN we're adding in a Choker somewhere in the vicinity, but close enough that they can grapple and abscond with one PC in a couple rounds. That's a CR 5 fight that, if done well, separates the PCs into 2 groups, 3 of which are fighting a giant spider while 1 PC alone, is dealing with a brutal choker!

My players would likely revolt. Maybe this is part of my problem though lately, as a GM. I NEVER build fights this lethal.

I do get the point though of putting the choker next to something that could challenge/distract the PCs. I might pick a lesser monster, like a bunch of rats or a couple giant centipedes, but I think that's about as far as I'd push it. I want the PCs to have a shot at overcoming the obvious threat even if one of their number gets grappled by the choker.

[Quixote]

I thought your players were these ruthlessly efficient, finely-honed killing machines?

First of all, a CR2 fissure? It's a hole in the ground.
Second, +1 CR for...giving monsters terrain to use one of their features? Do you increase the CR of a shark because it's in the water? Chokers and spiders live in cave-y type places. That's their home. Fighting a giant spider on a flat, feature-less plain where there's nothing to climb on, anchor webs to or hide behind should lower it's effective CR.

How challenging of a fight are you hoping for? I think one Medium giant spider, a hazard like an open pit and one choker would be a decent fight for a group of lvl1 characters.

And as far as CR goes, according to the CR calculator, a choker, a patch of brown mold, a Medium monstrous spider and a basic pit trap are worth 2,000xp in total. But...c'mon. That's between CR5 and 6. Does that encounter really out-perform a troll in terms of the drain on PC resources? A lvl5 fighter should be able to handle that encounter on his own and still have enough gas left to explore the next room.

From what you've said about your players, they need a ticking clock and some serious pressure to challenge them properly. Maybe someone or something struggling in the spider's web that they would want to save? Maybe a giant,, squirming egg sac that looks like it's ready to burst open any minute? Or maybe something worse is chasing them and slowly gaining?

[Hugo Rune]

I agree with Quixote, it's a CR1 pit and creatures are supposed to be encountered in their native terrain.

How about an alligator, possibly reskinned. It could lie in ambush in an underground pool. It grabs and pulls anyone next to the water into the water. That would give it an escape route and provide a challenge for the party members.

[Mark Hoover 330]

My current players are ruthless killing machines. The adventure I'm designing is not getting made up with them specifically in mind.

If I had four PCs that had no Swim speeds, spells to deal with being the in the water and so on and they encountered a shark, then yes; I'd increase the CR. Knowing my players however they would never let their characters go out on even a rowboat without scrolls of Air Bubble and Monkey Fish at least, in which case I'd consider things an even match.

If I were guaranteed to be putting my own players through this combat, I would have no problem at all running the threat combo the Windmill Tilter suggests here. Thinking back to the level 1 versions of several of their characters, most of them involved a PC with anywhere from a +8 - +11 Perception.

This means there's around a 50% chance that the PCs would get caught in one of the pre-spun webs of the spider. It is also highly unlikely the spider itself, once within 80' of the PCs, would get a Surprise round. Since they never start an adventure without a fire source it is likely the area would quickly be lit up with flaming webbing.

However they also always build their PCs with the five Knowledge skills to ID monsters, so it is expected that they'd have Knowledge: Dungeoneering in the party. With a successful roll of that skill against a DC 12 (likely about a 70% chance of success) they would know that Fire is going to affect the Brown Mold and will plan accordingly.

Finally, looking over the three campaigns I'm running and thinking back, I've had parties begin with a ranged attack specialist as well as an arcane caster (weirdly, all wizards) with ranged attack spells. 2 of those casters began with Magic Missile. Thanks to this I can guarantee that the choker, even if it managed to gain a Surprise round, would be hit for ranged damage as it fled up the wall with a PC, if it even managed to maintain the grapple at all.

On the other extreme however, there's a bunch of kids my daughter knows that are thinking about playing their first game of PF1 and my kid has suggested I run it. At THAT extreme end of the spectrum, with these kids never having picked up D20's in their lives, I think throwing them against all of this in the same chamber would be an automatic death sentence.

[yukongil]

could you decrease the effectiveness of many of the obstacles then? Cause that seems like a really fun, harrowing encounter. Like make the DC to avoid the pit 5 lower, have the brown mold just reduce the light radius of torches, etc...plenty of creative ways to lower the CR while maintaining the flavor of the encounter.

[Quixote]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

If I had four PCs that had no Swim speeds, spells to deal with being the in the water and so on and they encountered a shark, then yes; I'd increase the CR.

Why? Look at a shark. At it's stat block. It's really nothing impressive. I mean, compare a blue shark to an alligator, or a great white to a minotaur (pretty sure those are both equal CR comparisons). The CR has the shark's native environment baked right in there. The RAW and simple reason both say so.

That +1 CR is for more extreme examples; if your players encounter a choker while they're scaling a cliff in the middle of the night in a terrible storm, or the spider while they're crawling on their bellies through a narrow passage between natural caverns, that's not just "the monster's natural environment", that's a situation where the PC's are suffering significant drawbacks to being there and the monster is getting bonuses.

A shark washed up on the beach is not a CR2 encounter. A megalodon washed up on the beach is not a CR2 encounter. It's not an encounter at all.

As for this particular encounter, if you're looking to have some new players run and play it, I'd say: a giant spider and a choker. The webs can be cluttered with dust and debris (-5 to 10 to see them) and the spider can be, well, a spider. It doesn't necessarily use the best tactics every turn. It may fight defensively for one round to check if it's potential meal is a threat. If it takes damage, it continues to fight defensively. If not, it attacks normally. It retreats when reduced to 30% of its max hp or loses 30% of it's max in hit. Etc.

And if new people are going to be running it, I'd leave enough open for adjudication. Is grabbing your friend's legs and trying to pull them free from the choker's grip count as Aid Another? An opposed grapple? A Drag maneuver? This game can get comically muddy and complicated, so I'd emphasize the idea that the rules are there to help the game, and should never impede it.

[Hugo Rune]

Again, I agree with Quixote. Though I would be even softer with the damage aspect. Most instinctive creatures avoid taking damage and if they are wounded or ill go to great lengths to conceal it. Because being observably weakened is a signal to predators that they are easy prey. There are exceptions to this, such as: male herd animals in mating season; being cornered and unable to retreat; being exceptionally desperate for food and protecting their young. A potential meal that fights back is not worth the trouble in most circumstances, it's why many herbivores display their strength when being chased - it demonstrates to the predator that they will get hurt if they attack them so better choose something else.

Both the Giant Spider and Choker are likely to retreat and hide if they are substantially hit and that might be as low as 5% of their hit points in a single hit or 10% of their overall hit points. If the players chase them into their hiding hole then they will almost certainly have a fight to the death as the creature is cornered

[VoodistMonk]

Encounter design?

Do not just use one enemy with Grab, it's literally that easy.

Four(!) Giant Mantis symultaneously strike from the underbrush... whomever, by chance, is NOT grabbed/grappled, has the unique opportunity to pick which party member they like best and try to free them from the clutches of whatever giant insect has them.

One monster with Grab is exactly as lame as you think it will be... unless it's a Jotund Troll, or better yet, MULTIPLE Jotund Trolls... nom-nom-nom...

Earlier the better, honestly... the party was level ~13, and the Rogue chose NOT to exit after being Swallowed Whole, accepting the damage each round... just so he could deliver enough Sneak Attack damage to cut the stupid thing in half... it was race, and the Rogue won...

Guaranteed Sneak Attack when Swallowed Whole, or at least that's how I ruled it... I don't know if "no modifiers for its Dexterity" is the same as denied Dexterity. But it was thematically AWESOME having the top half of the troll fall to the ground with the Rogue standing on the bloody stumps of its legs...

[yukongil]

didn't work well for Drax...