When you identify a spell (either as it is cast, or after it has been cast for ongoing effects), are you made aware of the spell's level?
If not, I imagine heightening dispel magic to the right level as a spontaneous caster would be quite the guessing game!
**EDIT**
Welp, the rules are a fickle thing.
Sometimes you need to identify a spell, especially if its effects are not obvious right away. If you notice a spell being cast, and you have prepared that spell or have it in your repertoire, you automatically know what the spell is, including the level to which it is heightened.
If you want to identify a spell but don’t have it prepared or in your repertoire, you must spend an action on your turn to attempt to identify it using Recall Knowledge. You typically notice a spell being cast by seeing its visual manifestations or hearing its verbal casting components. Identifying long-lasting spells that are already in place requires using Identify Magic instead of Recall Knowledge because you don’t have the advantage of watching the spell being cast.
Since identifying a spell when its cast reveals its level, I would assume the same is true for a recall knowledge check to identify a spell that's already in effect.
Everything Blave said is right, except that Identify Magic is not a part of the recall knowledge activity, it is its own separate activity, which is only worth noting for the fact that any bonuses or abilities useful to recall knowledge won't apply to an attempt to identify magic, and that efforts to identify magical effects after they are cast, and that identify magic is an exploration activity that takes 10 minutes without additional feats, rather than a single action.
It is also important to note though that heightening a spell does not make it more difficult to identify. You use the base spell's DC from its original level, making a spell like charm relatively easy to identify once it is detected.
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If you're looking to counter-spell, that would require this Feat: Counterspell (Spontaneous) or Counterspell (Prepared
If you wanted to Dispel Magic after an enemy casts a pivotal buff, like Fly, you would need to know Fly or have it prepped, similarly to Counter Spell, but you would still need to cast it on your turn.
Recognize Spell lets you identify spells you don't know or don't have prepared, as long as you're trained in the appropriate dedication skill. It also lets you auto identify based on your proficiency in that skill.
If you're looking to be a dedicated Dispeller, both of these feats are really good.
If you wanted to Dispel Magic after an enemy casts a pivotal buff, like Fly, you would need to know Fly or have it prepped, similarly to Counter Spell, but you would still need to cast it on your turn.
The rules I quotes clearly state you can identify a spell with a Recall Knowledge check on your turn after it has been cast. It costs you an additional action and requires a skill check, but you do not striclty need to have a specific spell known/prepared to dispel it.
Recognize Spell does the same thing, just turns it into a Reaction.
If you're looking to be a dedicated Dispeller, both of these feats are really good.
Aren't Counterspell (Spontaneous) and Counterspell (Prepared) the same feat?
Are you sure you wouldn't need to take it only once?
If you're looking to be a dedicated Dispeller, both of these feats are really good.Aren't Counterspell (Spontaneous) and Counterspell (Prepared) the same feat?
Are you sure you wouldn't need to take it only once?
You are talking about this for a character that was a multiclass caster that had booth?
I think you would need both feats if you wanted to be able to counter spells with either prepared spells or spells out of repertoire. Each feat is pretty explicit in specifying which pool of spells your counterspell can come from.
Are you sure you wouldn't need to take it only once?You are talking about this for a character that was a multiclass caster that had booth?
Both prepared and spontaneous casting, yes.
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If you're looking to be a dedicated Dispeller, both of these feats are really good.Aren't Counterspell (Spontaneous) and Counterspell (Prepared) the same feat?
Are you sure you wouldn't need to take it only once?
I meant counterspell and quick identify. You can only get the counterspell version of what kind of caster you are.
The rules I quotes clearly state you can identify a spell with a Recall Knowledge check on your turn after it has been cast. It costs you an additional action and requires a skill check, but you do not striclty need to have a specific spell known/prepared to dispel it.
Recognize Spell does the same thing, just turns it into a Reaction.
Right, I forgot to put that in. I was focusing more of the auto identification of Recognize Spell.
Wait, I thought Dispel Magic allowed one to dispel a spell effect like Fly without you having to know Fly yourself. The only reason you'd want to identify a spell is because you'd want to specifically Counterspell it as a reaction rather than Dispel Magic its effects (if it had any lingering effects). Or maybe for Learning a Spell
Yea that's true. It's easy for visually obvious effects like fly, I just used it as an example because it's an commonly used spell. If someone were to use a spell with less obvious effects, identification would be necessary. You can't just target a person, you have to target a spell on the person, and to do that you need to know there's a spell on them.
Yeah, if heard/saw the spell being cast, you can recognize it with a successful recall knowledge action. If you meet some one and detect magic on them, you have to use the identify magic activity to figure out what the spell is.
I don’t think the identify magic activity would tell you the spell level on anything less than a critical success
I meant Counterspell and Quick Identify.If you're looking to be a dedicated Dispeller, both of these feats are really good.Aren't Counterspell (Spontaneous) and Counterspell (Prepared) the same feat?
Are you sure you wouldn't need to take it only once?
Ah, sorry.
You can only get the counterspell version of what kind of caster you are.
You got a rules reference to back that up? If I'm a wizard/dedication sorcerer, or some other caster capable of casting both prepared and spontaneous spells, I don't see any reason why I'd need to take the same feat twice.
I meant Counterspell and Quick Identify.If you're looking to be a dedicated Dispeller, both of these feats are really good.Aren't Counterspell (Spontaneous) and Counterspell (Prepared) the same feat?
Are you sure you wouldn't need to take it only once?
Ah, sorry.
You can only get the counterspell version of what kind of caster you are.You got a rules reference to back that up? If I'm a wizard/dedication sorcerer, or some other caster capable of casting both prepared and spontaneous spells, I don't see any reason why I'd need to take the same feat twice.
Because if you were a sorcerer, who MC'd into Wizard, for example, you'd never be able to use spells that you have prepared to counterspell with. The counterspell (spontaneous) explicitly calls out that you can only counter spells that are in your Repertoire. The prepared version has the same language to make it overly clear that it is not just using a spell you are able to cast, but able to cast in a specific way.
Perhaps, but how can you be sure it's not the same feat and that they just used disparate wording to keep from overcomplicating it?
Perhaps, but how can you be sure it's not the same feat and that they just used disparate wording to keep from overcomplicating it?
Because it seems stupid to write the same functioning feat in two different ways, in two (or more) different areas, in a rules system that's meant to be wholly consistent when written in multiple areas of the book.
I mean, if we want to say Paizo can't do their job of making important distinctions between two identical feats, by all means, sounds like you're doing all our work for us. But I'm pretty certain (and Occam's Razor would suggest) that Paizo didn't make a distinction just to have people trolling their message boards, watching their responses and munching on popcorn with "gotcha" grins on their faces. There is obviously a reason for it. And as Occam's Razor would suggest, it's because that distinction is important to make for the purpose of rules consistency.
Seems you're reading a lot more into it than what was actually said.
I didn't even imply that the Paizo staff wasn't doing their jobs. They might have the current wording for space saving reasons, but intend for it to only be one feat (that yes, works differently in different situations).
I don't have any real evidence for that, but I dont believe that interpretation is any weaker than anything else I've seen put forth in this thread.
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They are explicitly two different feats, they even have the traits of the classes that can take them.
Also, only Wizards Witches and Sorcerers can learn counterspell, which is very interesting. They both have the Arcane trait, which implies you would only be able to use it if you were an arcane caster, yet nothing prevents you from taking it if you have a different tradition as a sorcerer or witch.
It would not have been too hard to write a generic counterspell feat that said something along the lines of being able to counter any spell that you are able to cast from an available spell slot, instead of specifying whether it was memorized in a prepared slot or available in a repertoire.
It is possible that that wording wasn't thought of in development, and house ruling it to work on both seems fine to me on a table by table basis, but choosing to have the type of casting specified in the feat names feels far too intentional to believe that the counterspelling (spontaneous) was meant to work just as well with prepared spells.