I'm just starting up in PF2e and was looking at the cavalier archetype because I like that type of character. I might make a separate advice thread to figure a build, but first I wanted to clarify a number of things concerning how the character might work. There are threads addressing some of these points, but I wanted to try and get it all in one place and perhaps clear up some things. I'm going to put the question first followed by my current understanding.
Is there any way for a cavalier to benefit from their companion mount's support action while using the cavalier's charge feat?
-As I understand your companion gets two actions and you cannot trade your third action for another companion action as you might with a commanded regular animal, so there is no way to use mount support with cavalier's charge.
Caveat: Do you have to be mounted on your animal companion to use cavalier's charge? The dedication gives you a young animal companion that serves as your mount, and cavalier's charge states that you order your mount. If, however, your mount just refers to a creature you are riding you could mount a regular horse, order your animal companion to support you (also moving into position as second action for a riding drake or other animal with a positioning requirement), and then use cavalier's charge on the regular horse?
Trampling charge states that "you command your mount..." but doesn't use the phrase "you command an animal" like cavalier's charge or quick mount do to indicate that you are using that specific action. How many actions does trampling charge consume from your animal companion? If we had a level 20 cavalier with the legendary rider feat would you be able to use the command an animal action before or after using trampling charge? If so, would your animal companion mount have one or two actions available?
-I see no limit on the number of times command an animal can be used, so even if the feat counts as using it I think you could still command an animal again. However, the companion has used stride as one of two actions and would only have 1 action left. The feat makes no mentioned of performing a strike action, only using strike damage, so I believe the companion has used only one action.
What damage rolls do the horse support action and lance jousting bonus benefit?
-The lance benefits, including when wielding a lance with the horse support bonus as in that case it adds to the lance's trait, add circumstance damage based on the number of weapon dice, including striking weapon bonuses, deadly dice from a critical, and power attack (maybe, see next question). As the effect takes place if you moved 10ft or more on the action preceding your attack, this damage would apply if you were moved by another creature immediately before your attack (monster forced movement or something).
If you do not use a lance, the horse support damage bonus applies to all damage dice from an attack. This term doesn't seem as defined as weapon damage dice but seems to include spell damage, element dice from flaming or similar, and potentially precision damage. However, since the support benefit specifies an attack, you could only get the bonus on spells with the attack tag, which mainly seem to be rays like disintegrate.
Can you use the horse support benefit with feats like power attack?
-This question comes up because of an older thread here. As I follow the argument, feats like power attack are a subset of actions called activities. Activities have separate actions within the activity that do not require spending more actions, but do still count as actions. In relation to the horse support bonus, this means that if I command an animal to support and then move, then activate power attack my action chain would look like command->companion supports->companion moves->power attack->strike with bonus damage subordinate action. As the action before my strike was to activate power attack, I do not get the horse bonus. In cases where the activity has you move and then strike the horse bonus could apply, albeit in a strange way. Since the horse support doesn't have a positioning requirement, you would have the horse support, then use the activity to move->attack triggering the support benefit.
Following up, how would this work with activities that are tagged as attacks, such as forceful shot and harrying strike?
-I have no idea how this should resolve. It depends on whether the horse benefit applies to the whole attack activity action, including all subordinate actions, or only to the initial activation of the activity.
Thanks.
Momar wrote: Is there any way for a cavalier to benefit from their companion mount's support action while using the cavalier's charge feat? No. The feat says the companion strides twice, and you strike, that's it. The Horse's support basically grants the Jousting trait to any weapon, or doubles it for any weapon with the Jousting trait. This is arguably better than Cavalier's Charge, but the feat allows you to attack at any point in the charge, rather than at the end of it. It also grants an Attack bonus rather than a Damage bonus.
You can either:
Command Animal (Stride and Support), Strike, Strike
or
Cavalier's Charge (Stride Stride Strike) and have a free action left over
Momar wrote: Trampling charge states that "you command your mount..." but doesn't use the phrase "you command an animal" like cavalier's charge or quick mount do to indicate that you are using that specific action. How many actions does trampling charge consume from your animal companion? If we had a level 20 cavalier with the legendary rider feat would you be able to use the command an animal action before or after using trampling charge? If so, would your animal companion mount have one or two actions available? Trampling Charge takes up all your actions, so it normally wouldn't matter. But as you pointed out, being quickened kind of messes with it. Since you have not Commanded your companion yet this turn, you should be able to Command it as normal either before or after the Charge.
Momar wrote: What damage rolls do the horse support action and lance jousting bonus benefit? The intent is definitely for weapons, not spells, but it's not clear in the support benefit. RAW, it could indeed work on spell attacks. Also the horse's benefit can only be activated on your round, and lasts until the start of your next round. There would be no way someone pushing you could activate the extra damage.
Momar wrote: Can you use the horse support benefit with feats like power attack? Yes, as long as you have the actions left. And it would indeed increase by a lot.
Momar wrote: Following up, how would this work with activities that are tagged as attacks, such as forceful shot and harrying strike? If you meet the requirements, it applies to all attacks you make. Since those attacks are dealing damage, it would increase that damage. It would even work on all attacks with a Ranger's Flurry Edge or a Monk's Flurry of Blows. At level 20, if you command the animal with the quickened action at the start of the round, you can then Strike three times and get the +8 to damage on all three strike.
Thanks for responding.
Based on your responses to the last questions it seems you do not agree with the logic in the older post I linked of activities and subordinate actions. For you or anyone else, I assume in organized play like PFS they'll let you power attack (or whatever other feat) with the horse benefit?
Unfortunately subordinate actions and their nested actions have yet to be fully clarified for some of those issues that seem to pop up here and there.
As a similar example, if you used an activity that had a subordinate action of strike followed by a trip, was your "last action" the subordinate trip or the Activity that had the trip nested inside it? (i'm of the former opinion, but other people are of the latter)*
I don't play PFS to know if they have made a general ruling for such cases, but in a house game it's an easy and clear enough issue to talk with the GM and have him make a ruling that cover all such occasions.
such a question should be something like "If I'm doing an Activity that modifies some subordinate Actions, is the Activity by itself an Action, or only the subordinate ones, and is the first and the last Action the subordinate Action within the Activity, or the Activity itself?"
As a point of reference, in my house games i don't rule Activities that modify Actions as counting as seperate Actions themselves. So, if you do a Power Attack, your first "action" is the Strike within it, and if you do a Combat Grab, your "last Action" was the Strike within it as well. (Not to be confused by the total seperate case of something calling you to make a Strike specifically)
*actual conversation was if "If i do a Combat Grab Activity, is my "last action" for triggers a "combat grab" or the "Strike" within the Combat Grab.
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The horse support benefit mentions attacks, not a specific action. It applies to any attack action not specifically Strikes.
Momar wrote: -The lance benefits, including when wielding a lance with the horse support bonus as in that case it adds to the lance's trait, add circumstance damage based on the number of weapon dice, including striking weapon bonuses, deadly dice from a critical, and power attack (maybe, see next question). I just want to post on this one bit, since I remembered it from another thread (and had to hunt down the citation), along with something else a little wonky a Champion in a game I'm in ran into.
Core Rulebook wrote: Effects based on a weapon’s number of damage dice include only the weapon’s damage die plus any extra dice from a striking rune. They don’t count extra dice from abilities, critical specialization effects, property runes, weapon traits, or the like. Archives of Nethys Link
So unfortunately, the damage bonus from Jousting would cap out at +4, though it can be multiplied on a critical hit.
The other thing I wanted to comment on is in the mounted combat section (again, I saw this in another thread).
Core Rulebook wrote: Mounted Attacks
You and your mount fight as a unit. Consequently, you share a multiple attack penalty. For example, if you Strike and then Command an Animal to have your mount Strike, your mount’s attack takes a –5 multiple attack penalty.
You occupy every square of your mount’s space for the purpose of making your attacks. If you were Medium and on a Large mount, you could attack a creature on one side of your mount, then attack on the opposite side with your next action. If you have a longer reach, the distance depends partly on the size of your mount. On a Medium or smaller mount, use your normal reach. On a Large or Huge mount, you can attack any square adjacent to the mount if you have 5- or 10-foot reach, or any square within 10 feet of the mount (including diagonally) if you have 15-foot reach.
Mounted Defense
When you’re mounted, attackers can target either you or your mount. Anything that affects multiple creatures (such as an area) affects both of you as long as you’re both in the area. You are in an attacker’s reach or range if any square of your mount is within reach or range. Because your mount is larger than you and you share its space, you have lesser cover against attacks targeting you when you’re mounted if the mount would be in the way.
Archives of Nethys Link
Specifically, I wanted to point out the lower reach on a Large mount, and the fact you effectively occupy every space of your mount for attackers. This has some... quirks, as a small creature with a reach weapon can attack you from the back of a medium creature and you can't attack them in return.
I can't say that I'm thrilled about these clarifications, but I'd rather you knew about them than have them sprung on you. (The game I'm in, it's made for a frustrating time, as the Champion and GM have been learning about these at about the same time.)
Thanks for the extra responses and things to keep in mind. I wonder if the errata/clarifications coming up will address any of the stranger quirks of mounted combat.
I'm in a home game, so I think I can convince the DM to houserule a few things in favor of the lance/power attack combination to try and replicate the old cavalier big charge, but it's good to know the baseline of how everything normally works.
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