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But let's backtrack a little bit. How long do you think it takes to report a game? I don't know why so many people think this is some sort of arduous process - it only takes weeks for the VC to do it because the VC is doing 300 at a time. When I do it for myself for one game, it literally takes less than a minute unless there's a PFS number error.
No. It does not literally take less than a minute. And neither denying how long it takes or gross misuse of the word literally are helpful here. Its more like 5 to 8 minutes at a real computer thats set up and ready to go. When I haven't been awake and lugging 70 pound bags across 5 bus stops in 8 states for the last 24 hours. The more of those variables change the longer it takes.
Pass around a tablet; have people put in their own information into paizo.com. This doesn't need to be done at the end of the game, and then at the end, all the GM needs to do is push "Save and Exit." This is definitely what I'm doing if I ever need to self-report a live game.
The problems with this idea have already been shown.
During a game you're using your tablet.
If you're doing that during a game paizos website will derp out on you and erase your data.
Not everyone has a tablet
Not everyone has a tablet where you're going to want to do accurate data entry
Most conventions either do not have or are actively blocking the not hotel 20 dollars a day wifi.
If I'm not allowed to self-report, then I'll pass around a tablet with a Google Doc opened. People punch in their own PFS number, and then when the GM gets to The Official One and Only Reporting Terminal, they just open up the Google Doc and C&P.
This is not one copy and paste (which is why I have been asking that it BECOME one copy and paste) For the website reporting form for most conventions its 4 copy pastes and one dropdown box (for faction) per player. You aren't doing a copy/paste every 2 seconds.
This at least eliminates all the handwritten transcription errors. If I have a few minutes during a break, I might even punch in their PFS numbers into a dummy event just for the autofill (and then cancel the dummy event) so that I can ask someone about discrepancies before the game ends.
Which assumes that everyone has a character registered. Definitely not the case with the new guy, very often not the case with a lot of characters.
Relying solely on the buggy paizo website is a terrible idea.
Getting more reporting by placing the players rewards behind the buggy paizo website so they annoy the DMs into more reporting is a terrible idea.
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I could post the solutions for these but it's going to start getting condescending to explain the details at this point.
This problem is a problem that can be solved multiple ways with current technology and no structural changes required on Paizo's end (the latter is admittedly a huge barrier). If people are more interested in getting a decent system up and running, I'm happy to help <<snipped>>
This is the best comment you have made so far!
You are presenting yourself in a way that comes off as a "know it all" and "better than you". You are rubbing people the wrong way I guess I am trying to say. And I think you are beginning recognized this.
I, for one, have found some of your suggestions possibly helpful and will look into incorporating them into my routine.
I do believe someone's mileage will vary from GMing Play by Post to running an online game night to running multiple tables at a con. If I was to guess, you I would say your "largest" experience with getting and making chronicles comes from a PbP background. That is a different beast than online and con play.
A bit of advice, from someone who has "step" into something and then put that foot into my mouth more often than I like to admit, be mindful of how your how your words are received and assume the worst possible response.
EDIT: Forgot... Here is a second gold start and a smiling kitty sticker! (Sorry could help myself)
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It does not literally take less than a minute.
I will time myself the next time I input data. I don't have a Youtube channel, but I feel pretty confident that the barrier to obtaining a Youtube channel is low enough that the biggest barrier to posting a video will be obtaining consent from my players to post their data.
I reported two games back to back; time stamps show 8 minutes between the last edited Chronicle of Game #1 and the last edited Chronicle of Game #2. So reporting Game #1, plus editing Chronicles for Game #2, took 8 minutes. Again, a lot of work up front - I probably spent an hour or more setting it up - but that was done ahead of time.
Make of that what you will, but here's the thing: even if you take the position of "maybe that works for you, but ...", my question would be why you're fighting me so hard instead of asking me to show everyone how I do it?
For the website reporting form for most conventions its 4 copy pastes and one dropdown box (for faction) per player.
Hallelujah, someone actually gets to the root of the problem.
When I go to report on a convention website, it's 4 copy-pastes, a dropdown box, and there are no checks on whether the fields match.
It doesn't need to be this way. On Paizo's site, the name is autofilled and the faction is autofilled. It's faster and better than the convention reporting websites.
The inefficiency here isn't a necessary, unavoidable inefficiency created by Paizo's terrible website. It's an unnecessary, avoidable inefficiency created by Pathfinder Society bureaucracy on top of Paizo's terrible website.
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Make of that what you will, but here's the thing: even if you take the position of "maybe that works for you, but ...", my question would be why you're fighting me so hard instead of asking me to show everyone how I do it?
Because your position was completely unreasonable and one of my things is to argue what you want from the reality we have not the reality we want.
will time myself the next time I input data. I don't have a Youtube channel, but I feel pretty confident that the barrier to obtaining a Youtube channel is low enough that the biggest barrier to posting a video will be obtaining consent from my players to post their data.
Just make a fake game with your own characters and delete it later.
I reported two games back to back; time stamps show 8 minutes between the last edited Chronicle of Game #1 and the last edited Chronicle of Game #2.
Which would give you a time of EIGHT MINUTES to do that second chronicle. (Yes. This is the result of what you described. No. The amount of time spent on the first chronicle is not relevant. This is math.)
You: When I do it for myself for one game, it literally takes less than a minute
ME: Its more like 5-8 minutes
Your own test run gave you the HIGH end of My predictions. No, you did not do two chronicles in 8 minutes, you did one chronicle in an unknown amount of time and 1 in 8 minutes.
It doesn't need to be this way. On Paizo's site, the name is autofilled and the faction is autofilled. It's faster and better than the convention reporting websites.
The faction autofill doesn't work in starfinder where you can (and are sometimes encouraged/almost have to) change factions
The inefficiency here isn't a necessary, unavoidable inefficiency created by Paizo's terrible website. It's an unnecessary, avoidable inefficiency created by Pathfinder Society bureaucracy on top of Paizo's terrible website.
So what do you want as an alternative? You'd have to have every DM set as an allowed reporter, or just have A VC (or maybe a dummy account set up as a reporter?) Open and ready for DMs to sit down and enter data.
The first is PITA and often derps: I've tried adding designated reporters or getting added as one before and it just often doesn't work. For the second you're looking at staying signed in and that.. often logs you out. So you're looking at adding a log in log out time to your projections.
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No, you did not do two chronicles in 8 minutes, you did one chronicle in an unknown amount of time and 1 in 8 minutes.
You misunderstand. I finished all 6 Chronicles for the second game, plus reported the first game, in 8 minutes.
So what do you want as an alternative?
I thought that was pretty clear, given that my first post in this thread had bolded "Concrete Suggestion" headlines. I think reporting should be decentralized, or at least not tied to the VC who has a million other things to do. And as part of that, direct input into Paizo's system should be considered.
To be clear, I am not volunteering to input a whole convention's Chronicles, nor am I even saying that I could do it on scale as fast as I do one game (the number of tabs becomes unwieldy - I'll try to remember to show it on video but the key is to stack it all up in ordered tabs so it's Alt-Tab, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-W, Alt-Tab, Ctrl-V).
I am challenging the notion that it's crazy to propose one hour turnaround. It may not be worth doing (and definitely not worth committing to), but it's not at all crazy. It's only crazy right now because of the extra layers that PFS has put on PF. The information that a player gives to a GM takes a very long path to arrive at Paizo.com.
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It doesn't need to be this way. On Paizo's site, the name is autofilled and the faction is autofilled. It's faster and better than the convention reporting websites.
Sometimes it is. Very, very frequently it isn't.
Either the player hasn't yet inputted that character on Paizos website or the site takes too long and then decides not to autofill stuff.
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Here’s an idea. GM’s, get your chronicles issued as quickly as you can. Players, you can have whatever expectations for timeliness as you want, it’s not going to change how quickly the GM can/will get them issued. If you feel they are late, send the GM an email asking for a status. If they don’t answer in whatever timeframe you feel is appropriate, then escalate the issue to your event organizer or local Venture-Officer. If that doesn’t satisfy you, escalate the issue to the VC/RVC. If at that point you are dissatisfied, then either report the issue to Paizo or suck it up.
The point is, some GMs are slower than others for whatever the reason. Some players have expectations that exceed those of the GM. The player cannot “force” the GM to do it any faster than they intend to. Like the old adage says, “grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”
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I thought that was pretty clear, given that my first post in this thread had bolded "Concrete Suggestion" headlines.
Which I've responded to.
Reporting at the table requires everyone to have a tablet suitable for data entry. Not Every DM has one.
Reporting from the table requires an internet connection, that many conventions don't have or are actively against because they want you to buy the overpriced hotel internet access
You'd have to have every DM set as an allowed reporter is PITA and often derps: I've tried adding designated reporters or getting added as one before and it just often doesn't work. This is why conventions DON"T do this and use their own websites instead.
or just have A VC (or maybe a dummy account set up as a reporter?) Open and ready for DMs to sit down and enter data.
The first For the second you're looking at staying signed in and that.. often logs you out. So you're looking at adding a log in log out time to your projections.
What I'd like as an alternative is a sheet of dead tree you can fill out to be able to show to the DM and track for when things go wrong with the website, so that something going wrong with the website isn't such a big deal.
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It doesn't need to be this way. On Paizo's site, the name is autofilled and the faction is autofilled. It's faster and better than the convention reporting websites.
The inefficiency here isn't a necessary, unavoidable inefficiency created by Paizo's terrible website. It's an unnecessary, avoidable inefficiency created by Pathfinder Society bureaucracy on top of Paizo's terrible website.
Something to keep in mind is that those fields will only auto-populate if the has registered their character on Paizo's website. Not every player has done this! Most of us here have because we know that by doing it helps with reporting, but for players that don't also GM, they likely have no idea. And for those players I have asked to get put theirs on Paizo, at least half just don't care. And tell me that.
But with rewards on AcP, this should help by getting players to get their characters on the website.
I am confused by "Convention Reporting Websites". What do you mean by this?
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This thread is pretty much done. The same points are being made over and over.
The reporting of tables has improved since the beginning of the year. Why do I say this? Because everyone is becoming more aware of the need to report.
Everyone, Players and GMs, have a part to play in this. When we work together, and have good communications, this will get done faster.
OP leadership is taking steps to help as much as they can. They can't change the website. But they can change what needs to be recorded on paper (PDF?). And they have. Several steps have been cut out of the process.
So let's "put a pin" in this and revisit at the end of session 2? The change that is happening takes time to happen.
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So let's "put a pin" in this and revisit at the end of session 2? The change that is happening takes time to happen.
I am more than willing to "put a pin" in this thread, but I can almost guarantee this issue is going to be revisited before the end of Season 2 naturally.
Paizo has, for reasons frankly beyond me, already gone ahead with making half of structural changes required to make this a good system: boons no longer show up on the Chronicles, and a lot of purchases need to be made on the flaky, suboptimal site. On top of it being hard for us to convince them of anything, it's even harder to convince them to go back and reverse those decisions.
So, as Society, our option really is to figure out a way forward. And the speed at which we report is firmly within our control. When Chronicles had information on them, there was the ability to say "paper rules." Even if the game weren't reported on the website for weeks or months, people trusted the paper copy. Now, that's disappearing, and admittedly before the new system is online.
Sooner or later, someone is going to come onto the boards and complain about it taking weeks to see their game online, and all these arguments are going to show up again anyway.
We can kick this can down the road, but it's not going away. We can also spout platitudes like "let's just agree to disagree" and "let's just all try our hardest," but that's just a fancy way of immortalizing the status quo. (Are people not trying their hardest to get reporting done ASAP right now? The whole point is that there's an incredible variation between what people consider to be "ASAP".)
These heterogeneities are supposed to be what Society irons out. If someone plays a game at a "slow" region that takes 4 weeks to report, and then plays at a "fast" region that expects reporting to be done the next day, there's going to be potential for problems.
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As a side note, I did a dry run this morning, just out of curiosity (I'm going to set up my phone to shoot a video of my screen later today, I can't figure out how to get my computer to turn the screen into a video). I'm sad to report that I was, in fact, mistaken about reporting being done literally under a minute. My first run missed the mark wildly (1:20), but I made a few missteps, and retried. The second run went as smoothly as I had initially hoped, and yet, it was still 1:10. I might be able to shave another few seconds off, but I'm afraid I will have to concede on literally under a minute. I can't do it in literally under a minute.
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Sooner or later, someone is going to come onto the boards and complain about it taking weeks to see their game online, and all these arguments are going to show up again anyway..
I am pretty sure no one has said that "taking weeks" is acceptable. It really was not before and even less so now.
What has been discussed is if time frame of "immediately" is reasonable or is a different time frame that is not "weeks" but not "immediately" acceptable.
We will see what future brings. I guarantee that no one had the upstart team from China, Covid-19, winning the Final Four last April.
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As a side note, I did a dry run this morning, just out of curiosity (I'm going to set up my phone to shoot a video of my screen later today, I can't figure out how to get my computer to turn the screen into a video). I'm sad to report that I was, in fact, mistaken about reporting being done literally under a minute.
So you're starting the timer with what.. the spreadsheet from your game open in another window and yourself logged into paizo?
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if time frame of "immediately" is reasonable or is a different time frame that is not "weeks" but not "immediately" acceptable.
My question is, if a GM does not meet whatever expectation I/you/we decide what are you going to do about it? What about events that are not overseen by Venture-Agents at a FLGS? If RVCs are the only ones with admin access then they will have to be the lead on all reporting omissions. Do you think they want all that on their plate?
Most seem to dislike the idea of sanctioning GMs since they have such a small pool of them so any restriction against them would be more of a penalty to the community than the "offending" GM.
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As a side note, I did a dry run this morning, just out of curiosity (I'm going to set up my phone to shoot a video of my screen later today, I can't figure out how to get my computer to turn the screen into a video). I'm sad to report that I was, in fact, mistaken about reporting being done literally under a minute.So you're starting the timer with what.. the spreadsheet from your game open in another window and yourself logged into paizo?
I timed myself yesterday, FWIW, but more for my own curiosity.
From the moment my 5 players logged off Discord I started copying/pasting sign-in sheet data into each Chronicle, uploading them to Google Drive, sharing that link in my Discord (they actually already had a link but I had a blind player who needs it posted separately), copying/pasting sign-in sheet data into Paizo reporting (which I set up the Event last week), then updated Paizo's Event page for next week's session, and finally went back to Warhorn to post next week's session there.
Total time, at a leisurely pace, was 13 minutes. Then I filled out my own Chronicle, which I knew would take significantly longer.
The Paizo reporting itself took maybe 1-2 minutes, including one player who had the wrong faction listed.
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Granted, I do this roughly twice a week, and I'm a believer in "practice makes perfect".
You're also starting off logged in at your computer at home with a spreadsheet in one window and a paizo logged in, open and ready to go in another
I don't think most of those hold for any kind of meatspace convention scenario.