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Over the past couple weeks, I've been mostly lurking on these boards, reading people's opinions of the Magus and formulating my ideas and opinions on how it works, what is good and what is not good, and how it could be improved. And I know we have a LOT of these threads lately and there's probably not much of a point to this, but I wanted to get my ideas out there anyways.
Before doing so, I wanted to lay out my reasoning behind my changes and where my mindset was in this.
1) I really wanted to make as few and as simple changes as possible. I don't want to completely rewrite the class or make it into something that it isn't. I think we saw with the APG playtest that large sweeping revamps of the class isn't really what is most likely to happen and all in all I do LIKE what is in the Magus right now. At least in concept, I think that in execution it doesn't seem to work.
2) The simpler the design changes, the easier it is to know how broadly these changes will effect the class going forward. Obviously I know that these are just my suggestions for changes, but I am still trying to show something viable here and if I go off the rails too much it will be difficult to predict the effects of what I am suggesting.
3) The Magus is not an Eldritch Knight or a Fighter/Wizard Multiclass, sometimes acting martial and sometimes acting magic. The Magus blends both arts into a single thing, and his core ability SHOULD showcase this. Right now, besides the terrible feel of Striking Spell because of it's mathematics making it feel as though you are extremely likely to lose the few spells you have every time you attempt it (which I think is played out in my own play-testing of the class as well as the playtesting of MOST others who don't figure out a way to make it work via theory-crafting and power-gaming), my other major problem is that in many ways it just feels like you're striking and then casting a spell. A one-two punch that any other Gish build could do rather than a single harmonious act. For the class to BE the Magus, this needs to be fixed.
And so, here are my overarching 'fixes' to the Magus. I shall be replicating the features of the Magus here that I am recommending changes to, and those changes will be highlighted in bold.
STRIKING SPELL [free-action]
CONCENTRATE - MAGUS - METAMAGIC
Frequency: once per round
You drastically alter a spell to combine it with a martial attack. If the next action you use is to Cast a Spell that can target one creature or object, instead of casting it as normal, you place its magic into one melee weapon you’re wielding or into your body to use with an unarmed attack. When you use a melee Strike using the receptacle for the spell, the spell is discharged, affecting only your target, regardless of whether you hit your target or not.
If the spell normally requires an attack roll, resolve the effects of the spell with the same degree of success as your strike. If the spell normally requires a save, the target makes their save as normal, taking a -2 Circumstance penalty to their save if your strike was a Success, a -4 Circumstance penalty to their save if your strike was a Critical Success, and a +2 Circumstance bonus to their save if your strike was a Failure. A strike made with a spell imbued via Striking Spell counts as one more attack for your Multiple Attack Penalty than it normally would.
If you don’t expend the stored spell with a Strike before
the end of your next turn, it is lost and dissipates harmlessly.
The same thing happens if you take the Striking Spell action
again or if the weapon is used for a non-melee Strike (such as a
thrown weapon Strike). A spell stored with Striking Spell can’t
be discharged by anyone but the caster.
These changes I think are somewhat intuitive. It achieves the result of making the Striking Spell feel more like it blends the martial and magic rather than just letting one happen after the other, it largely improves the odds of your Spell Attack spells hitting, so you aren't statistically likely to waste so many of your 4 spells per day. And it even ties the save spells to your martial attack more than your current version does, giving less of a bonus on a Crit, but also giving a bonus on a regular hit.
SPELLSTRIKE CIRCUIT [reaction] 3rd
CONCENTRATE - MAGUS
Trigger: You would have discharged a spell stored via a strike
You feel the magical energies of your spell begin to leave your weapon as a result of your strike and respond with twist or spin of your weapon and intense focus to recapture these energies before they are expelled. Rather than discharging the stored spell, you retain the spell in your weapon, allowing it to be discharged on a later strike.
This helps greatly with the problems of loosing your spells, and indeed arguably makes the Magus class that can get the most average bang for it's buck out of it's spell attacks, or just it's single target spells in general. But I think this is more than fair given that it only has 4 spells.
I have done a lot of damage comparing of this version of the Magus to specifically the Dragon Barbarian, which is a pretty potent damage dealer, but not at the top tier because it has other utility like flight, AOE, ect, which I felt made it a good comparison.
I tested this version of the Magus vs Barb at level 10 across 1 turn with 5th level spells and Cantrips. I did the same across 2 turns assuming a miss with your Spellstrike which you retain via Spellstrike Circuit. I then redid these tests assuming flanking, a +2 bonus to strikes, fear, and then finally again with all of that and using True Strike.
All of this was tested against only two strikes with the Barbarian, and not taking into account any feats or items which might increase power, and assuming a +2 Greater Striking weapons with two basic damaging property runes, a Longsword for the Magus and a Greatsword for the Barbarian.
I'm not going to go into a ton of detail, but basically, using a spell the Magus out-damages the Barbarian, although not by a huge amount. If he is hasted and uses True Strike with his best level 5 Attack Spell, using 4 actions, he does about 50% more damage than two strikes on a round from a Barbarian. Although of course he uses twice as many actions and can only do this rarely and with a lot of set up.
With Cantrips, he still does less damage than the Barbarian, even if he does use True Strike. But his damage does still feel meaningful, if less than standard martials.
New Magus Synthesis
Knowledge Aegis
You tether your Spellbook to yourself via the magical strands of the spells, allowing it to act as more than just a tome of your magical knowledge. These tethers keep your book primed to protect you without your needing to give a second thought to the dangers about.
You gain both the Shield Block feat as well as the Raise a Tome Magus feat, and can use your own Spellbook in place of a shield for the Shield Block feat. When doing so, treat your Spellbook as having a Hardness equal to the highest level spell you can cast, with HP equal to double that amount and a Broken Threshold equal to half its HP. If the Spellbook takes damage, or is broken or destroyed, the pieces are held together by the same magical tethers which bind the book to you and these tethers will slowly pull your Spellbook back together, completely restoring it over the course of 10 minutes if it was damaged or broken, or one hour if it was completely destroyed. After you use Striking Spell and start Casting a Spell that takes 1 action or more to cast, you can Raise a Tome using only your Spellbook as part of that Cast a Spell activity
This one is honestly easy to understand. There needed to be a Shield Magus and the Raise a Tome feat was way too cool not to lean into. Note the level 1 feat can still be taken by any other Magus, but they don't get nearly the same degree of benefits from it. This is honestly probably just straight better than Sustaining Steel, which probably needs a bit of a buff anyways, but I won't be doing that here as I don't have that much of an interest in it.
My last thing I wanted to touch on was some changes, replacements, and a couple additions to class feats, mostly either because they won't work with the new paradigm of my recommended changes, or to flesh out the new Synthesis.
MULTITASKING READER - Feat 4
Arcane - Concentrate - Magus
You are able to "hold" books, scrolls, and other receptacles of the written word that cover a subject tied to a skill you are at least trained in and are of Bulk L or less by levitating them inches from your hand, turning the pages or otherwise perusing the information with a flick of your finger. Holding these items does not count as your hand being occupied and you may still hold another object or objects in both hands while doing this. If you have the Raise a Tome Magus feat, you may Raise a Tome while having both hands otherwise occupied.
This feat MIGHT need to be a higher level, but as of now, I rather like it. It allows Magi of Slide Casting and Sustaining Steel to use Raise a Tome.
WARDING KNOWLEDGE [free-action] - Feat 10
Abjuration - Arcane - Magus
Prerequisites: knowledge aegis magus synthesis
Trigger: You Raise a Tome via Casting a Spell altered by Striking Spell using a Spell Slot
Your Spellbook feeds information about the immediate world around you, abilities of allies and enemies, quantum states of matter and energy, local atmospheric phenomena, all to inform you of how to better protect yourself against all dangers. You add your +1 Circumstance bonus to AC from your Tome to your saves as well. Increase the bonus to +2 for Will Saves. If the spell was of the abjuration school, you may give these bonuses to one willing creature within 10 feet of you as well.
Kinda boring, but I needed a level 10 feat to go along with the other level 10 feats, and Abjuration seemed the most appropriate.
BOOK-BINDING SHIELD - Feat 12
Magus
Prerequisites: trained in crafting
You have learned how to simplify and condense the magical properties of certain shields and magical materials into a cover that slips seamlessly over the bindings of books. For half the price that it would cost to buy any specific magical shield, you may convert a similar shield into such a cover. This process must be done the same way that you would craft any other item, requiring the same Crafting checks as the shield would. This cover doesn't need to be sized for particular books, as the magic of the item allows it to seamlessly shift in size to fit any book of bulk L or less. Affixing this cover to a book or removing it takes one action. The AC bonus from Raising a Tome with this cover on it increases to +2
Special: If you are of the Knowledge Aegis synthesis and place this cover on your Spellbook, then you may chose either the natural Hardness and HP/(BT) of your Spellbook or that of the shield you are affixing to it.
In case it isn't obvious, I REALLY like Raise a Tome and want it to get more love.
CONTROLLED EXPLOSION - Feat 14
Magus
You can now use Striking Spell to Cast a Spell that can affect multiple targets over an area, such as fireball, into your weapon the same way you would normally. When you do so, you may chose to use the same area pattern of the spell, originating on the target of your strike, or if the spell normally has a burst area to shape the area of the spell into a cone of the same size as that of the burst, a 20-foot cone in the case of fireball. If you are caught in the area of your own spell, you must make a save against your spell like normal, with a +2 Circumstance bonus to your save.
This feat, besides being cool, is largely to set up the NEXT feat which is a replacement for Second Chance Strike which no longer does anything really.
PERFECT EXPLOSION - Feat 18
Magus
Prerequisites: Controlled Explosion
When you discharge a spell with an area of effect that was stored into your weapon via Striking Spell, you may chose a number of creatures equal to your Intelligence Modifier, including yourself, that are unaffected by the spell. The spell bends around them harmlessly, doing damage only where you wish it to.
So yes, this is my idea for the Magus and the principle ways that I would personally fix it. I think that my version of the Magus looks like what I hope the final version looks like.
I am not saying that this is EVERYTHING that it needs, or that it has to be done this way. These are just a few ways that I can see of fixing the most glaring problems with the Magus as is.
I would very much like some comments and criticisms, as I am sure that there are problems with some of the ways that I have done things.
The Magus is my all time favorite class (tied with the Witch), and I am really hoping that it lives up to all my hopes and dreams.
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I'm less interested in if using cantrips with spell strike is beneath barbarian.
But that cantrips with spell strike is > the Magus just attacking 3x (since it's 3 actions).
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I really liked your Striking Spell and Circuit idea
IMHO, resolving the spell attack with the martial attack’s degree of success should have been the way to go; makes narrative sense and is limited by how few slots you have.
I think the Dragon Barbarian comparison is fair and your data makes sense. Personally, I idealize that a Magus should out-damage a full martial with one of their few slots, but be behind them with cantrip + strike, although not much
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I'm less interested in if using cantrips with spell strike is beneath barbarian.
But that cantrips with spell strike is > the Magus just attacking 3x (since it's 3 actions).
Why would that be? If the Magus can occasionally spike to being significantly above the Barbarian, shouldn't his "all the time" DPR be less?
And I'm not talking about a lot. Across the board I was consistently getting a DPR for Cantrip Spellstrike in the range of 80-85% that of two basic strikes with the Raging Barbarian
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I'm less interested in if using cantrips with spell strike is beneath barbarian.
But that cantrips with spell strike is > the Magus just attacking 3x (since it's 3 actions).
Why would that be? If the Magus can occasionally spike to being significantly above the Barbarian, shouldn't his "all the time" DPR be less?
And I'm not talking about a lot. Across the board I was consistently getting a DPR for Cantrip Spellstrike in the range of 80-85% that of two basic strikes with the Raging Barbarian
maybe you misunderstood me.
i wasn't asking to do equal DPR to such a barbarian.
i said i want spell strike with cantrips to be > me just attacking 3x, otherwise there is no point in my class feature outside of 4 spell slots a day. and less of a point in me getting cantrips.
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Plus, cantrips have the extra advantage or having a variety of different effects and targetting different weaknesses. So occasionally you could be a bit above a barbarian on specific ennemies.
I'm less interested in if using cantrips with spell strike is beneath barbarian.
But that cantrips with spell strike is > the Magus just attacking 3x (since it's 3 actions).
Why would that be? If the Magus can occasionally spike to being significantly above the Barbarian, shouldn't his "all the time" DPR be less?
And I'm not talking about a lot. Across the board I was consistently getting a DPR for Cantrip Spellstrike in the range of 80-85% that of two basic strikes with the Raging Barbarian
maybe you misunderstood me.
i wasn't asking to do equal DPR to such a barbarian.
i said i want spell strike with cantrips to be > me just attacking 3x, otherwise there is no point in my class feature outside of 4 spell slots a day. and less of a point in me getting cantrips.
I don't think comparing Spell Strike to attacking x3 is fair. You're not likely to hit that third attack save for a couple builds like Flurry Ranger. More likely, you will only get two attacks off at most. So you really need to compare Spell Strike DPS to attacking twice. In that case, Spell Striking cantrips look decent and are very potent on a crit.
Now this is assuming the synthesis are good enough to offset the 3 action cost of Spell Strike. Slide is nice so far from what I played, but I'm not sure about the others. Slide made me feel like I was cheating the action economy by getting off a Stride, Strike, and cantrip in 3 actions.
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I'm less interested in if using cantrips with spell strike is beneath barbarian.
But that cantrips with spell strike is > the Magus just attacking 3x (since it's 3 actions).
Why would that be? If the Magus can occasionally spike to being significantly above the Barbarian, shouldn't his "all the time" DPR be less?
And I'm not talking about a lot. Across the board I was consistently getting a DPR for Cantrip Spellstrike in the range of 80-85% that of two basic strikes with the Raging Barbarian
maybe you misunderstood me.
i wasn't asking to do equal DPR to such a barbarian.
i said i want spell strike with cantrips to be > me just attacking 3x, otherwise there is no point in my class feature outside of 4 spell slots a day. and less of a point in me getting cantrips.
I don't think comparing Spell Strike to attacking x3 is fair. You're not likely to hit that third attack save for a couple builds like Flurry Ranger. More likely, you will only get two attacks off at most. So you really need to compare Spell Strike DPS to attacking twice. In that case, Spell Striking cantrips look decent and are very potent on a crit.
Now this is assuming the synthesis are good enough to offset the 3 action cost of Spell Strike. Slide is nice so far from what I played, but I'm not sure about the others. Slide made me feel like I was cheating the action economy by getting off a Stride, Strike, and cantrip in 3 actions.
until spell strike is 2 actions to do, i wont compare it to 2 attacks. that is silly.
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i suppose i should clarify that when i say using spell strike with cantrip>attacking 3x.
i mean average DPR. as a third attack is unlikely to hit, but it does happen.
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i suppose i should clarify that when i say using spell strike with cantrip>attacking 3x.
i mean average DPR. as a third attack is unlikely to hit, but it does happen.
Just did some quick Calculations of my Magus Rework set up for one round of average damage of Cantrip Spellstrike vs. 3 Strikes. I didn't do all extra stuff with Flanking and fear and True Strike and whatnot, but at just the basic stage 3 Strikes at level 10 vs standard AC comes out to 28.75 vs 27.65, in favor of 3 Strikes.
Given the rider effects of most cantrips, the more fluid action Economy, the Synthesis abilities tied to using Striking Spell, I think that 1.1 point of damage average at level 10 still leans highly in favor of Spell Striking most of the time.
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i suppose i should clarify that when i say using spell strike with cantrip>attacking 3x.
i mean average DPR. as a third attack is unlikely to hit, but it does happen.
Just did some quick Calculations of my Magus Rework set up for one round of average damage of Cantrip Spellstrike vs. 3 Strikes. I didn't do all extra stuff with Flanking and fear and True Strike and whatnot, but at just the basic stage 3 Strikes at level 10 vs standard AC comes out to 28.75 vs 27.65, in favor of 3 Strikes.
Given the rider effects of most cantrips, the more fluid action Economy, the Synthesis abilities tied to using Striking Spell, I think that 1.1 point of damage average at level 10 still leans highly in favor of Spell Striking most of the time.
and i disagree. hell i just energize strikes and can proceed to ignore most of my cantrips wich is sad at that point. no reason with how weakness works.
so hard pass if its not better
i suppose i should clarify that when i say using spell strike with cantrip>attacking 3x.
i mean average DPR. as a third attack is unlikely to hit, but it does happen.
Just did some quick Calculations of my Magus Rework set up for one round of average damage of Cantrip Spellstrike vs. 3 Strikes. I didn't do all extra stuff with Flanking and fear and True Strike and whatnot, but at just the basic stage 3 Strikes at level 10 vs standard AC comes out to 28.75 vs 27.65, in favor of 3 Strikes.
Given the rider effects of most cantrips, the more fluid action Economy, the Synthesis abilities tied to using Striking Spell, I think that 1.1 point of damage average at level 10 still leans highly in favor of Spell Striking most of the time.
and i disagree. hell i just energize strikes and can proceed to ignore most of my cantrips wich is sad at that point. no reason with how weakness works.
so hard pass if its not better
And that's probably fair. Given that any bonus damage is going to benefit multiple strikes more than a single strike, such as Energize Strikes and weakness which can be easily taken advantage of via Runic Impression.
The problem of course is that Cantrips are just pretty weak in terms of raw damage.
Perhaps then Midnightoker's idea of dropping Weapon Specialization should be taken up on top of my ideas, replaced with something along the lines of "Spell Combat Specialization" that increases the damage of Spells and Cantrips equal to the level that the spells are heightened to when used with Striking Spell.
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You can't energize your strikes without casting an energy damage spell, so you have to do that at least once. As much as I really enjoy the energize strikes, it does create a dynamic where you want to lead into combat with a spell and then just attack as much as possible afterwards. I don't know if I really find that to be a problem personally, but I can see how others might. It also compounds with weapon specialization, so if it is a problem, it is a problem there as well.
I do really like though how well runic impression works for creating the magical effect of having exactly the right rune on your weapon. That feels very magical to me.
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Yeah it's unfortunate as it makes energized clunky to start up. But still better then trying to produce flame spell strike every round.
Wich is boring af, disappointing because your core class feature has seldom use during your adventuring day beyond your first round.
I could drop energized strikes. But attacking would still be better than spell strike. Especially if you take a 5th level critical specialization effect via feat/ancestry.
Overall I'm much more interested in Magus over summoner as I always liked combining spells with martial prowess and up until now 2e strictly doesn't have a real option for that. Magus is the chance. But if they boil down to no reason to use their combining of magic and melee with your cantrips, leaving you gambling in what amounts to pseudo disadvantage to land what also amounts to 3 action maneuver resulting in possibly the swingiest and most unreliable class in the game? (Wich is impressive given some of the classes we have) then count me out. I hope they can address these issues. Swashbuckler was a fail for me due to their unreliable she swingy playstyle. I hope that doesn't happen to Magus.
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(Wich is impressive given some of the classes we have) then count me out. I hope they can address these issues. Swashbuckler was a fail for me due to their unreliable she swingy playstyle. I hope that doesn't happen to Magus.
I 100% agree with you on the Magus, noting that my suggestions do very much reduce that effect of it being so swingy.
That said it is still very much a "Nova" class, and I think that it should be. The problem right now is how terribly inconsistent their Nova potential is.
I do disagree on Swashbuckler though. It is currently my favorite Martial class in PF2, and that's because it so much more versatile. I've had fights where I went 3 rounds without ever expending my Panache, and fights where I did so every round, dancing around my foes.
I don't want it to be so swingy as the Swashbuckler. That IS what the SB is for IMO and the Magus needs a very different playstyle.
However, while I seriously disagree with Unicore and don't think the Magus is in a good place at all, I do agree with him in that I hope that they have the options to have all sorts of different rounds. Some where they Spellstrike. Others where they have built up a bunch of different excess magical energies via Energized Strikes, Bespell stuff, ect that they do want to use just regular attacks.
Others where they can do a magical attack and also move twice, or move once and raise a Tome.
My biggest problem is Fighter/Wizard or any other current Multiclass Gish is that they very often just cast a spell and then just do the same attack routine all the time because they have so few leftover class feats to build out a good Martial tool box.
I just played a Barbarian/Cleric of all things that kicked ass, was very potent, but basically just Herosim before the Battle, then Predator Pounce-Strike-Strike every round.
I want to avoid that with the Magus. I want Spellstrike to be awesome. But I want other options to be good as well, and for you to have access to those and for it not to feel like you're wasting your time.
But yes, Spellstrike needs to be MUCH better before we even entertain other things to do.