What if Evolution Feats interacted with Evolution Surge

[KrispyXIV]

In thinking on people's desire for things like a lower level Flight evolution, one of my main concerns is on duplicating functionality that is essentially currently free.

A feat that offers limited flight ability at level 6 or 8 allows for addressing desires for representing wings, but mechanically its only a marginal gain over the ability to navigate vertical obstacles offered by a climb speed.

But what if taking it gained you additional marginal utility once Evolution Surge would normally make it redundant?

For an illustration relative to a Evolution that currently exists, consider this. What if Climbing Evolution had a clause at the end that said this.

"When you choose to grant your Eidolon a Climb Speed with the Evolution Surge spell, the climb speed is equal to the creatures speed." As opposed to half or 25, whichever is lower.

Thus, a lower level Glide feat (such as one of several offered up as examples of limited noncombat flight at level 6 or 8) could have a clause that, for example, said "When you use the Evolution Surge focus spell to grant your eidolon a Fly speed outside of encounter mode, the duration is 10 minutes. This duration immediately is reduced to one minute if you enter Encounter mode."

I think Evolution Surge is already a very awesome core mechanic for the class, and there may be a lot of potential for allowing it to grow and become more interesting based on evolution feats influencing its potential effects.

Any thoughts?

[Aashua]

I think this is a pretty solid Idea, 10 minutes of flight is a lot more usable in out of combat scenarios then just one, so that would allow people who are really wanting that fantasy to work with it a bit more. I really wish more interesting things were placed in the 10 minute space in general. I feel its pretty hard to cram a ton of combat inside that time, while allowing you to use things more as adventuring tools then combat ones. The extra clause you added here is also a nice extra layer to completely dodge ye old buff and rush where suddenly the PCs want to count rounds constantly so they can keep their buffs up for 2-3
really close fights.

[KrispyXIV]

Aashua wrote:

I think this is a pretty solid Idea, 10 minutes of flight is a lot more usable in out of combat scenarios then just one, so that would allow people who are really wanting that fantasy to work with it a bit more. I really wish more interesting things were placed in the 10 minute space in general. I feel its pretty hard to cram a ton of combat inside that time, while allowing you to use things more as adventuring tools then combat ones. The extra clause you added here is also a nice extra layer to completely dodge ye old buff and rush where suddenly the PCs want to count rounds constantly so they can keep their buffs up for 2-3

really close fights.

The flight discussion got me thinking, because I'm not on some sort of ideological crusade against a flying ability earlier than 16 - I just think that we have a perfectly serviceable implementation that kicks in for free at 9, making most class feat evolution options for it mostly redundant.

If it weren't, for practical purposes, redundant with existing options (or broken, of course, but most recent suggestions are pretty well balanced) then absolutely lets get it in here.

I think something like a feat for Glide, which if you invested in it makes the free Flight at 9 better especially in a way thematically consistent with gliding, hits a lot of high marks for me personally.

But doing that there also opens a whole lot of doors for doing it elsewhere as well. Theres a lot of potential for expanding Evolution Surge imo.

[Aashua]

Just to lay out some of the other early PC flying abilities here.

Airwalk - available at level 7 (4th level spell slot) - Single Target - 5 Minutes

Phantom Steed - available at level 11 (6th Level spell slot - only good for 1 person I believe - 8 Hours - notably ever so slightly dangerous as if it dies you'll plummet, he is a very fast lad tho

Form Control Soaring Form Druid - available at 12 (6th Level Focus Spell) - Self only - last 1 hour - costs 3 feats(2 if you picked Wild order to start with)

Just something to consider 9th level 10 minute focus spell seems like it could line up reasonably here but perhaps 5 minutes would be better.

[Pronate11]

Aashua wrote:

Just to lay out some of the other early PC flying abilities here.

Airwalk - available at level 7 (4th level spell slot) - Single Target - 5 Minutes

Phantom Steed - available at level 11 (6th Level spell slot - only good for 1 person I believe - 8 Hours - notably ever so slightly dangerous as if it dies you'll plummet, he is a very fast lad tho

Form Control Soaring Form Druid - available at 12 (6th Level Focus Spell) - Self only - last 1 hour - costs 3 feats(2 if you picked Wild order to start with)

Just something to consider 9th level 10 minute focus spell seems like it could line up reasonably here but perhaps 5 minutes would be better.

I will say, the actual earliest flight is at lvl 3, when a small creature can cast summon animal for a giant fly and mount that. There are rules for riding animal companions with flight, but none what so ever for normal creatures. A medium creature can do the same at 3rd lvl with a giant bat. So to be able to do the same ish with your eidolon makes sense

[KrispyXIV]

Pronate11 wrote:

Aashua wrote:

Just to lay out some of the other early PC flying abilities here.

Airwalk - available at level 7 (4th level spell slot) - Single Target - 5 Minutes

Phantom Steed - available at level 11 (6th Level spell slot - only good for 1 person I believe - 8 Hours - notably ever so slightly dangerous as if it dies you'll plummet, he is a very fast lad tho

Form Control Soaring Form Druid - available at 12 (6th Level Focus Spell) - Self only - last 1 hour - costs 3 feats(2 if you picked Wild order to start with)

Just something to consider 9th level 10 minute focus spell seems like it could line up reasonably here but perhaps 5 minutes would be better.

I will say, the actual earliest flight is at lvl 3, when a small creature can cast summon animal for a giant fly and mount that. There are rules for riding animal companions with flight, but none what so ever for normal creatures. A medium creature can do the same at 3rd lvl with a giant bat. So to be able to do the same ish with your eidolon makes sense

Those summon options are neat, but come with significant action limitations (gotta summon on the spot, sustain the spell in addition to using the mount rules) that make them... kindof impractical.

Also these are dangerously flimsy and prone to fall damage exposure.

[Pronate11]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

Aashua wrote:

Just to lay out some of the other early PC flying abilities here.

Airwalk - available at level 7 (4th level spell slot) - Single Target - 5 Minutes

Phantom Steed - available at level 11 (6th Level spell slot - only good for 1 person I believe - 8 Hours - notably ever so slightly dangerous as if it dies you'll plummet, he is a very fast lad tho

Form Control Soaring Form Druid - available at 12 (6th Level Focus Spell) - Self only - last 1 hour - costs 3 feats(2 if you picked Wild order to start with)

Just something to consider 9th level 10 minute focus spell seems like it could line up reasonably here but perhaps 5 minutes would be better.

I will say, the actual earliest flight is at lvl 3, when a small creature can cast summon animal for a giant fly and mount that. There are rules for riding animal companions with flight, but none what so ever for normal creatures. A medium creature can do the same at 3rd lvl with a giant bat. So to be able to do the same ish with your eidolon makes sense

Those summon options are neat, but come with significant action limitations (gotta summon on the spot, sustain the spell in addition to using the mount rules) that make them... kindof impractical.

Also these are dangerously flimsy and prone to fall damage exposure.

first, not really impractical out of combat. And second, It's the fact that you can do it at 3rd level means we already have a president, so we can modify it instead of creating something whole cloth. You can already get a 30 ft fly speed at 5th level, but it uses a limited resource, can only fly twice a round, and can be easily countered. So now, if we want to make a version that's more powerful in one way, we can see how other efects grew in power and modify it from there. It's a lot easier to balance something when you can look both a more powerful version and less powerful versions.