Lucky Number Spell (with some support) on Summon Monster

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Hello there,

the Lucky Number Spell says:

You are able to tweak tiny variables affecting a creature’s immediate future in order to grant the target a bit of luck at the right time. Roll a d20; once during the duration of lucky number, when the target creature rolls that result (regardless of what type of dice the target rolls), the creature has the option to either reroll the result or add a +2 luck bonus to the result. The creature must decide to use this ability before the success or failure of the original roll is known. A creature can have only one lucky number at a time. If lucky number is cast on a creature already affected by that spell, the new number replaces the previous one.

Notably: regardless of what type of dice the target rolls

A summoning class that summons several monsters from one or two lists down (1d3 or 1d4+1 respectively) would apply for the Lucky Number bonus, no? Provided you roll a 1-4 on your Lucky Number roll, you would get 2 (3 with Fate's Favored) extra summons out of this 1st level spell.

The odds could be turned in your favor if you apply things like the Luck Domain to your Lucky Number roll (roll twice and take the more favorable - in this case lower - result). Which you could further increase by the 6th level reroll power from the luck domain or the "Borrow Fortune" Spell that for example the Fate subdomain grants.

Anything that prevents this powerful combination ruleswise?

Also do you have any further options to reduce the roll on the Lucky Number Spell?

[Belafon]

Yup, this works. Lucky number is a really good spell if you roll low.

I can’t think of anything that will reduce the outcome of an untyped d20 roll. Plenty that penalize certain types (saves, caster level checks, etc.) but not everything. Some untyped bonuses, so there may be something I can’t think of right now.

The cyclops ability “flash of insight” lets you choose the result of a d20 roll before you make it. Accessible to PCs via the cyclops helm and the Cyclopean Seer oracle archetype. Usually used to force a natural 20, but could just as easily be used to make your lucky number “3.”

[Diego Rossi]

I am not convinced that it is a powerful combination. There are a couple of summons that, in the right situation, can benefit from 2 extra creatures, but unless you are calling lantern archon to laser a lich behind a wall of force to death (and not all Gm will agree that it works), stirges to drain someone constitution, or creatures with several useful SLA, two extra-low level creatures don't make a lot of difference. Especially if you use a reroll to try to get the right number.

The initial d20 roll is all to chance. The utility of being able to reroll a specific result once is powerful if you get to reroll an extremely low result, as it can save you if you risk falling a save. A + 2 luck bonus (that can be increased with specific traits or feats) can be useful for mid-range rolls that could fail. But you get the bonus only once. There are better first level spells.

[Theaitetos]

There's a small chance to roll a good number for summons, and at low levels you could just use an Empowered/Maximized Metamagic Rod to boost your summon numbers.

Lucky Numbers has a 15% or 20% chance (1-3 or 1-4 on d20) to add +2, which averages to a +0.3 or +0.4 bonus. That's a nice daily buff for a summoner, but not too powerful. At high levels, when you can afford to waste away all your 1st-level spell slots, you can cast Lucky Number several times to get a good number; but there are much better uses for it than improving summon numbers - dedicated summoners are likely to have feats like Superior Summoning that increase the number already, adding little %-benefit to a summon spell.

Other spells out there, like Enervation, that probably benefit even more from Lucky Number. The most powerful use is likely for those rare groups, where players roll for more HD on gaining a new level.

[Belafon]

You know, I hadn't thought about it before but this actually makes a pretty good addition to my "not particularly powerful, somewhat annoying, and sometimes useful" 20th level conjurer wizard build.

Spoiler:

Taking full advantage of the Summoner's Charm ability to make one summon monster spell permanent. Add Spell Perfection summon monster ix to maximize enjoyment.

You need the following:
20th level conjuration school wizard
Fate's Favored Trait
Greater Rod of Empower Metamagic
Augment Summoning
Superior Summoning
3 metamagic feats
Spell Perfection (summon monster ix)

Assuming you have some downtime you will eventually be able to have the following happen:

Lucky number of 3.
Cast summon monster ix to bring in d3 from summon monster 8. Use greater rod of empower. Roll a 3.
Total number of monsters =
(3 (roll) + 3 (lucky number and fate's favored)) * 1.5 (empowered) = 9
+ 2 more for Spell Perfection/Superior Summoning
= 11 of your favorite monsters from the summon monster 8 list. All with a +8 bonus to strength and constitution.

I'm personally partial to the Monadic Deva Angel or the Leonal Agathion (using a feat or Ring of Summoning Affinity to add it to the summon list). And it's PERMANENT until they are brought to negative HP, so just keep trying every day until you roll those threes!

[Belafon]

You can actually squeeze a bit more of a bonus onto your lucky number but it's not particularly easy.

Normally it's a +2 luck bonus (+3 with Fate's Favored) but you can get up to a +5.

Chaldira Zuzaristan:

If you are a Sentinel of Chaldira (or have the Deific Obedience and Diverse Obedience feats and be 14th level) you can increase your luck bonus by another +1 (it stacks with Fate's Favored).

If you have a friend who is an exalted of Chaldira (or just 16th level with Deific Obedience) then if she is the one who casts lucky number on you, your luck bonus increases by another +1 (it stacks with Fate's Favored and the Sentinel ability).

[Theaitetos]

Belafon wrote:

= 11 of your favorite monsters from the summon monster 8 list. All with a +8 bonus to strength and constitution.

There's a much better way, by utilizing the best summon spell available.

First, exchange the summons from the 8th-level list (1d3) to 7th-level list (1d4+1), so that you get even more summoned monsters:

(5 (roll) + 3 (lucky number and fate's favored)) * 1.5 (empowered) = 12
+ 2 more for Spell Perfection/Superior Summoning
= 14 of your favorite monsters from the summon monster 7 list. All with a +8 bonus to strength and constitution.

Then cast Alter Summoned Monster twelve times (i.e. on all of your summons) and turn them into monsters from the 9th-level list. This works because the original summon spell was a 9th-level spell.

Alter Summoned Monster is one of the most overpowered spells in the book (obviously not PFS-legal), so your GM might just ban it. If not, best utilize it via Heightened metamagic on a Summon Mount spell, and voluntarily limit yourself to 1 such summon; that way you don't end up too overpowered, since you basically just extended the duration of the summon: you still summon only 1 monster with the appropriate Summon Monster x spell slot.

[Diego Rossi]

Check the past discussions about altering Summon Mount with Alter Summoned Monster.
ASM doesn't alter what the Summon spell allows you to do and Summon Mount gives you a creature "to serve you as a mount". Not "as a fighting, spellcasting creature that follows your orders".

And changing a spell so that it last 2/hours level instead of 1 round level at the cost of a 2nd level spell isn't overpowered, sure ....,
<Roll eyes>

[Theaitetos]

Diego Rossi wrote:

And changing a spell so that it last 2/hours level instead of 1 round level at the cost of a 2nd level spell isn't overpowered, sure ....,
<Roll eyes>

That's why you limit it to 1 creature. This turns your summon into something like a familiar or animal companion. Very strong, but not overpowered.

If you want overpowered, then play a Shapechanger sorcerer and turn any transmutation spell, that targets only you, from a 1min/level spell into a 1h/level spell.
If you still want more power, buy the Runes of Wealth book and turn any spell into a transmutation spell.
Form of the Dragon III, Winds of Vengeance, Fiery Body, Spell Resistance, Iron Body, Greater Angelic Aspect, Seamantle, Frightful Aspect, ... raised to 1hour/level. THAT is op.

[Diego Rossi]

Quote:

Mutable Flesh (Su): At 3rd level, once per day when you cast a transmutation spell with a duration of 1 minute per level that affects only you, you can increase its duration to 10 minutes per level. At 9th level, you can increase the duration to 1 hour per level.

One spell only.

Quote:

Using Preparation Rituals

When a spellcaster who prepares spells uses a spellbook or formula book with a preparation ritual, as long as he prepares at least three spells (not including cantrips) or formulae from the spellbooks, he gains a temporary boon granted by the ritual.

A Sorcerer doesn't prepare spells from a spellbook

[Theaitetos]

Diego Rossi wrote:

One spell only.

Once per day is more than sufficient to make it last long enough. For example, Extended Form of the (Normal/Alien/Exotic) Dragon III is a 9th-level spell, that would last for 2h/level, and with just a little bump in caster levels this can easily mean 48 hours.

Diego Rossi wrote:

A Sorcerer doesn't prepare spells from a spellbook

They can still gain the boon by expending a spell slot:

Quote:

Meditation books and prayer books have the same cost as the spellbooks they emulate (including the cost of the scribed spells, despite the users of such books not normally requiring spellbooks to prepare spells). If the boon granted by a meditation book or spellbook applies to only a particular class’s spells, a character gaining that boon can apply it to any spell from the same class list that the spells she prepared were drawn from (for prayer books) or that provided the spell slot expended (in the case of meditation books).

A spellcaster can benefit from a meditation book’s preparation rituals by preparing spells or meditating to regain spell slots while studying the spellbook and expending one spell slot of a level at least equal to that of the highest-level spell within the meditation book.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Belafon wrote:

The cyclops ability “flash of insight” lets you choose the result of a d20 roll before you make it. Accessible to PCs via the cyclops helm and the Cyclopean Seer oracle archetype. Usually used to force a natural 20, but could just as easily be used to make your lucky number “3.”

Nice, did not know that Helm. It's not even that pricey and you don't have to deal with propabilities at all.

Theaitetos wrote:

Lucky Numbers has a 15% or 20% chance (1-3 or 1-4 on d20) to add +2, which averages to a +0.3 or +0.4 bonus. That's a nice daily buff for a summoner, but not too powerful. At high levels, when you can afford to waste away all your 1st-level spell slots, you can cast Lucky Number several times to get a good number; but there are much better uses for it than improving summon numbers - dedicated summoners are likely to have feats like Superior Summoning that increase the number already, adding little %-benefit to a summon spell.

This of course would be in addition to Superior Summoning and the like. The spell itself woould not be that great due to its low chances of rolling 1-3, but with rerolls it gets increasingly better. Of course this is a theme you have to build around.

The bit of luck power increases the 1-3 chance from 15% to 27%. A third reroll (for example from ill omen, another 1st level spell) increase it to 38% (I believe at CL 5 a casting of ill omen would affect both "bit of luck" rerolls, so it's actually a 4th reroll).

The good thing about all this is its flexibility. You start for example with bit of luck and ill omen. If you get your 1-3, you stop. If not, maybe apply Borrow Fortune or the Good Fortune/Tugging Strands reroll. If you happen to roll a 4, you know you can switch to the 1d4+1 list of summon monsters instead of the 1d3 list. If you happen to roll a 5, you might summon your strongest monster and the spell still finds use for a save or initiative or attack roll.

At the first few levels your 1st level slots will be too precious, but on later levels (when summoning multiple creatures becomes relevant), there will likely be 1st level slots left at the end of the day. Due to the 24h duration, you can expend all resources left to get a nice powerful summon the next day and it won't cost you a lot.

[Theaitetos]

You know, these are an awful lot of investments from many different classes into 1 single effect. The Luck domain power needs a cleric, Ill Omen needs a witch or psychic caster [and the GM might decide which roll is the less favorable result for you], Borrow Fortune needs an oracle or psychic, ... and who is the summoner?
Is there a Luck cleric and a witch in your party, or what class are you planning on playing?

An Empower Metamagic Rod has a similar effect, even if you have the Fate's Favored trait and even if we assume you get 1-3 or 1-4 on your Lucky Number roll:

[Empower Meta]: (1d3) x 1.5 = 3 on average
[Lucky Number]: (1d3) +3 x (1/3) = 3 on average

[Empower Meta]: (1d4 +1) x 1.5 = 5.25 on average
[Lucky Number]: (1d4 +1) +3 x (1/4) = 4.25 on average

The +3 is your luck bonus (including Fate's Favored).
The (1/3) and (1/4) are the respective chances of rolling your Lucky Number on the summon dice.

I suggest going the first few levels with a lesser metamagic rod; if you reach higher levels (8+) and you think there's still room for this strategy, then go ahead with it, you might even combine the Empowered metamagic with the Lucky Number.

Edit: The Helm wouldn't work on the Lucky Number spell, as it's not an "attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check". If you like lucky numbers, you can also try a Dhampir and take the Numerological Gift trait.

[Belafon]

Theaitetos wrote:

Edit: The Helm wouldn't work on the Lucky Number spell, as it's not an "attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check".

Huh, you’re right. I didn’t notice that the helm grants a “limited” version of Flash of Insight. Have to be an oracle then. (Unless your GM allows you to play as a cyclops.)

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Theaitetos wrote:

You know, these are an awful lot of investments from many different classes into 1 single effect. The Luck domain power needs a cleric, Ill Omen needs a witch or psychic caster [and the GM might decide which roll is the less favorable result for you], Borrow Fortune needs an oracle or psychic, ... and who is the summoner?

My character is a Sworn of the Eldest Monster Tactician Inquisitor with the Fate Subdomain (Luck). I got the Luck Domain, summoning and Borrow Fortune covered. Propably there is a witch in the party, but ill omen was just an example of reroll mechanisms that came to my mind. Part of my question was to find other ways to reroll that I might get access to myself.

Empower rod is nice and propably more effective, but I tend not to plan with buyable items, because I don't know if the GM will provide enough wealth or if other items might be needed more. Besides the affordable rod loses its effects after Summon Monster III and I have to keep investing to keep the tactic going. The lucky numbers age quite well without much (monetary) investment.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

I agree though that bit of luck and ill omen won't work together, since both refer to the more resp. less favorable result and I can't argue to use both at the time on order to get the lower roll.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Found some stuff that would work:

Pugwampi Braid, given to an ally who activates the aura.

Foresight Divination School Power, accessible via VMC if you don't want to multiclass

I'm not sure if you can stack infinite rerolls within each other, but IF you could it would be:

1. have ally activate Pugwampi Braid (reroll/take lower on all d20 rolls within a minute)
2. activate bit of luck on yourself (reroll all d20 rolls until next round and take more favorable result)
3. next round as a free action activate the Foresight Power and roll a d20 (roll twice because of bit of luck, roll each of the both rolls twice again due to Pugwampi Braid), so we got 4 rolls already for the school power alone. One might argue the rerolls don't multiply and that both rerolls apply only on the original roll, which still gives us 3 rolls total)
4. cast Lucky Number and apply Bit of Luck and Pugwampi Braid for the same reuslt as above, netting 3-4 rolls again.
5. compare the Foresight result with the Lucky Number result and pick either.

Depending on the ruling, you now have:

8 rolls totally: 72,7% of rolling 1-3
6 rolls totally: 62,2% of rolling 1-3

or if you are saying Pugwampi Braid an Bit of Luck can't apply both:

4 rolls totally: 47,7% of rolling 1-3

My char now would go VMC and thus get a familiar that I'd give the Arcane Amplifier Archetype for applying Extend Spell to Lucky Number and netting me a duration of 48 hours in which I can roll the 1, 2 or 3 on one of my 3+CHA Summon Monster SLA's per day.

Things I invested into it: 9kgp, a use each of a basic cleric/wizard ability and a 1st level spell.