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OK, you're oblivious.
Seriously, E6 is a variant on the d20 system in which the highest level achievable is (wait for it) 6th, with extra feats being awarded for experience after L6. It's an attempt to stretch out the perceived sweet spot in the 3.x power progression, neatly avoiding a lot of the distorting spells and abilities and making for a much grittier game.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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OK, you're oblivious.
Seriously, E6 is a variant on the d20 system in which the highest level achievable is (wait for it) 6th, with extra feats being awarded for experience after L6. It's an attempt to stretch out the perceived sweet spot in the 3.x power progression, neatly avoiding a lot of the distorting spells and abilities and making for a much grittier game.
Oh. Well that's kind of interesting.
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MythWeavers take on E6 with a bunch of feats that work in the game.
and the actual rules--
E6 rules
I really like the concept alot and think it is a good way to avoid all the "Teleport in and out of fights, Let's do massive math for the 12 attacks I and my pets have, I will cast the END COMBAT spell,"....etc, that is usually what higher level play evolves into. I am not a fan of high level play, as a DM or a player. E6 seems to solve this.
EDIT---My links are WAY better than TOZ's....;P
MythWeavers take on E6 with a bunch of feats that work in the game.
and the actual rules--
E6 rulesI really like the concept alot and think it is a good way to avoid all the "Teleport in and out of fights, Let's do massive math for the 12 attacks I and my pets have, I will cast the END COMBAT spell,"....etc, that is usually what higher level play evolves into. I am not a fan of high level play, as a DM or a player. E6 seems to solve this.
EDIT---My links are WAY better than TOZ's....;P
The myth weaver rules talk about spells doing 10d6, (cone of cold), how is that possible undef E6 ?
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The myth weaver rules talk about spells doing 10d6, (cone of cold), how is that possible undef E6 ?MythWeavers take on E6 with a bunch of feats that work in the game.
and the actual rules--
E6 rulesI really like the concept alot and think it is a good way to avoid all the "Teleport in and out of fights, Let's do massive math for the 12 attacks I and my pets have, I will cast the END COMBAT spell,"....etc, that is usually what higher level play evolves into. I am not a fan of high level play, as a DM or a player. E6 seems to solve this.
EDIT---My links are WAY better than TOZ's....;P
Not sure....maybe they use some 3.5 feats that increase caster level? I haven't used MythWeavers' list except as a general ideal. I tend to stick with my second link....the actual rules, and build my own ideas into what I want.
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I'm not particularly big on E6. If you don't want to deal with high level play, just end your campaigns at 6th level, or whatever level you feel you as a GM can top out at, say 8th or 9th.
There's a big difference between e6 and stalling out at level 6. In e6, your 6th level character DOES contine to grow in power, through gaining additional feats. One of the reasons I like the e6 system is that to me, it makes sense that as a character approaches the upper echelons of power, his power level would gradually level off, as opposed to the skyrocketing power levels of ELH-style play.
I'm not particularly big on E6. If you don't want to deal with high level play, just end your campaigns at 6th level, or whatever level you feel you as a GM can top out at, say 8th or 9th.There's a big difference between e6 and stalling out at level 6. In e6, your 6th level character DOES contine to grow in power, through gaining additional feats. One of the reasons I like the e6 system is that to me, it makes sense that as a character approaches the upper echelons of power, his power level would gradually level off, as opposed to the skyrocketing power levels of ELH-style play.
There is also the fact that 5th level in 3rd edition dnd (and thus pathfinder) pretty closely resembles the absolute peak of human ability. So in E6, the heroes are able to just get past what real human beings can actually do before they start to level off. The fighter is just a little bit tougher then the best soldier on earth, and the wizard is just a little bit smarter then einstein and steven hawking.
What this mean is that things that are rationally a threat remain a threat. It is good for dms that dont like the 'superhero' feel of mid to high levels. Falling off a cliff or into lava is still very deadly, and even magic is still with the bounds of the believable.
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There is also the fact that 5th level in 3rd edition dnd (and thus pathfinder) pretty closely resembles the absolute peak of human ability. So in E6, the heroes are able to just get past what real human beings can actually do before they start to level off. The fighter is just a little bit tougher then the best soldier on earth, and the wizard is just a little bit smarter then einstein and steven hawking.
What this mean is that things that are rationally a threat remain a threat. It is good for dms that dont like the 'superhero' feel of mid to high levels. Falling off a cliff or into lava is still very deadly, and even magic is still with the bounds of the believable.
True. Although, since I feel that the Pathfinder rules are fairly stable up to 12th level or so, I'd probably use an e12 variant, where the characters truely do become superheroes...but still should fear lots of things that lurk in the darkness.
What this mean is that things that are rationally a threat remain a threat. It is good for dms that dont like the 'superhero' feel of mid to high levels. Falling off a cliff or into lava is still very deadly, and even magic is still with the bounds of the believable.
Or look at using Midnight or iron heores for D20 games with less superhero.
Or another system altogether.
If it wasn't clear I am not a fan even though I think 6-10 is the "sweet spot" of the game.
Even in 3.0 and 3.5 any city of 10K+ could reliably find a caster capable of casting 8th level spells, so i am unconvinced of the 5th-6th is in the rules as the high end of people in the world that people use in conjunction with E6.
I still respect you Kolokotrani, I just disagree.
I am running an E6 campaign, though the characters are only 3rd level so far. I am doing it not because I think it is better, but because I struggle as a GM to handle potent magic. My hyperactive left brain struggles to deal with a world where walls aren't obstacles and the impossible is mundane.
Cool things so far:
At level 3, the party is already "big cheese" in the world, with all the benefits and drawbacks that creates. They can persuade people in power to do them favors, but wheu the dragon starts nesting on the city tower, everyone looks at the party to protect them.
Struggles:
Figuring out what magic items are available by the RAW and which ones should be ayailable anyway.
What this mean is that things that are rationally a threat remain a threat. It is good for dms that dont like the 'superhero' feel of mid to high levels. Falling off a cliff or into lava is still very deadly, and even magic is still with the bounds of the believable.Or look at using Midnight or iron heores for D20 games with less superhero.
Or another system altogether.
If it wasn't clear I am not a fan even though I think 6-10 is the "sweet spot" of the game.
Even in 3.0 and 3.5 any city of 10K+ could reliably find a caster capable of casting 8th level spells, so i am unconvinced of the 5th-6th is in the rules as the high end of people in the world that people use in conjunction with E6.
I still respect you Kolokotrani, I just disagree.
I never doubted your respect, but i am not talking about the high end of people in the GAME world. I am talking about the high end of people in the actual world as in Earth. Basically what is described here. If you compare what a 5th level expert can do with a knowledge check it compares very evenly with Einstein for instance (one of the examples in the knowledge checks section, or that in 3rd edition, a 4th level character's jump very closely matched what champion olympic long jumpers can do. So a 6th level character is essentially one of the larger then life characters from film and literature but that still reside within the realm of reality (think john maclain from die hard or aragorn from the lord of the rings). These guys are badass for sure, but they are still vulnerable to all the things that threaten normal people (long falls, gunshots, stabs etc). They may bear them better then most, but they are not inhuman. Where as 8-12th you are entering super hero town. You can fall off a 20 story building and have a good shot at geting up and moving on (ala batman in the dark knight, or spiderman in half his comics).
What this mean is that things that are rationally a threat remain a threat. It is good for dms that dont like the 'superhero' feel of mid to high levels. Falling off a cliff or into lava is still very deadly, and even magic is still with the bounds of the believable.True. Although, since I feel that the Pathfinder rules are fairly stable up to 12th level or so, I'd probably use an e12 variant, where the characters truely do become superheroes...but still should fear lots of things that lurk in the darkness.
I agree that the game is still stable way past 6th level, I am talking more in terms of the characters mechanics and their connection with reality. Dont get me wrong, I dont play E6, in fact my current game STARTED at 7 which is right where I personally prefer to start. But I understand and appreciate the assistance E6 provided in keeping the game in line with 'reality'
I am running an E6 campaign, though the characters are only 3rd level so far. I am doing it not because I think it is better, but because I struggle as a GM to handle potent magic. My hyperactive left brain struggles to deal with a world where walls aren't obstacles and the impossible is mundane.
Cool things so far:
At level 3, the party is already "big cheese" in the world, with all the benefits and drawbacks that creates. They can persuade people in power to do them favors, but wheu the dragon starts nesting on the city tower, everyone looks at the party to protect them.Struggles:
Figuring out what magic items are available by the RAW and which ones should be ayailable anyway.
The GM I play under has a similar problem and as such most of his games end between 6-8 so I default end up playing E6/E8 wihtout the movers and shakers aspects. I just want him to be more upfront when we start a campaign that that's what is going to happen.
@Kolokotrani I think that you are right about "real world" effects being in the scope of levels 1-6. What I dislike is summed up in a great quote a guy I know said, "As soon as you bring up the expression "realism" in a discussion of a game or game system you have lost, run physics simulations on the computer instead." E6 is predicated on just this line of thinking rather than moving to a new game system that may tell the kinds of stories those people want more effectively without an artificially (IE not in the core game design) imposed limiter is my issue.
Insanity is repeating the same action and expecting different results. E6 advocates appear to fall into this; and I guess so do I when I try and convince them to use a different system.
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...What I dislike is summed up in a great quote a guy I know said, "As soon as you bring up the expression "realism" in a discussion of a game or game system you have lost, run physics simulations on the computer instead." E6 is predicated on just this line of thinking rather than moving to a new game system that may tell the kinds of stories those people want more effectively without an artificially (IE not in the core game design) imposed limiter is my issue.
Insanity is repeating the same action and expecting different results. E6 advocates appear to fall into this; and I guess so do I when I try and convince them to use a different system.
Though I haven't played E6, it seems to me that the d20 engine is robust enough to be repurposed for low-power play. Certainly there are enough people out there who enjoy it that I'm not going to accuse them of badwrongfun.
Re your first comment, if/when I grouse about realism I suppose what I'm really on about is verisimilitude, or perhaps plausibility. Aristotle wrote, "It is better to portray a plausible unreality than an implausible reality," but everyone's definition of plausible is going to be at least a little bit different from each other's. Not to mention varying with time and a whole lot of other factors.
Re your first comment, if/when I grouse about realism I suppose what I'm really on about is verisimilitude, or perhaps plausibility. Aristotle wrote, "It is better to portray a plausible unreality than an implausible reality," but everyone's definition of plausible is going to be at least a little bit different from each other's. Not to mention varying with time and a whole lot of other factors.
Umm magical unerring missles fly from someones hands another creates matter from nothing (violating realism all to be damned). Verisimilitude means something different in a game with the ability to ignore physics. Plausibility gets thrown out with the bathwater in the game as written and why I encourage folks to play Dungeon World or Becoming Heroes or Iron Heroes.
@Kolokotrani I think that you are right about "real world" effects being in the scope of levels 1-6. What I dislike is summed up in a great quote a guy I know said, "As soon as you bring up the expression "realism" in a discussion of a game or game system you have lost, run physics simulations on the computer instead." E6 is predicated on just this line of thinking rather than moving to a new game system that may tell the kinds of stories those people want more effectively without an artificially (IE not in the core game design) imposed limiter is my issue.
I am not talking about pure simulationism, but instead realism of concept. There is nothing wrong with a pathfinder dm want to play a lord of the rings type campaign. You cant do this with a high level pathfinder game. The mines of moria are inconsequencial with teleport, and the 15th level fighter cuts through the orc armies and even the trolls like butter.
Pathfinder is essentially 3 different games (1-6(classic fantasy) 7-12(superheroes - xmen, spiderman, robin/nightwing) and 13-20(super heroes - superman, green lantern, thor) [your milage may vary]). Once you get access to things like dimension door and teleport, or gasheous cloud, or water walk or overland flight, or any of the really game changing utility spells, the kind of game you are playing changes. Once you have the HP and saves to shrug off 100ft falls the game changes.
Insanity is repeating the same action and expecting different results. E6 advocates appear to fall into this; and I guess so do I when I try and convince them to use a different system.
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So if a dm wants to play only one of those 3 games, I dont think they need a new system, they just need an understanding of what the actual limitations of the system are. If E6 works well (and it does), and is well supported with material, adventures, setting material etc, why switch to another system? It isnt neccesary when you have the foundation right here. So long as you are willing to apply careful houserules, d20 can do most anything you want it to.
Now if you wanted to go 1-20, and have linear progression of characters AND keep that down to earth feel of the game, then you are right they are in the wrong system. But E6 isnt the wrong system, it is just adopting a portion of the game system modifying it slightly to acheive a specific goal. Its no different then dark sun was where a portion of the rules are essentially cut out or re-written to re-empahsize the game.
6th level more realistic? ha! I remember two events in RPGs that took place within a week of each other. As I was the DM for both games it really stuck in mind.
Party of adventurers open a door and are faced with a dwarf pointing a heavy crossbow at them. "Don't move or I'll plug you!" he says.
D&D: (it was 1st addition, but could just as easily have been 3rd), and the characters are somewhat experienced (3rd or 4th level). Results? The characters rush the dwarf, suck up the C-bow bolt and hardly notice it.
RuneQuest: and the characters were somewhat experienced - with a few Cult initiates in the group. Results? most of the party freezes, but the D&D player (a guest for the nights game) rushes the dwarf and gets plugged. As the party NOW rushes the dwarf, the Healer trys to fix the leg the CBow bolt maimed (while the player goes on about "but it's just a CROSSBOW! and only ONE SHOT!").
I said its a rational approximation of the world, not a perfect simulation. The same way john maclain can take down a room full of terrorists while not really being invulnterable, the dnd fighter can rush the guy with a crossbow and not get dead. The characters are still action heroes, they just arent divorced from reality on the level of high level characters.
And while HP is the weakest element of realism of the d20 game, it is not as bad as you make it out when you understand that a hit in dnd doesnt actually mean a wound, HP is an abstraction of both vitality (energy) and injury (wounds). In the case of the dnd characters, the 'hit' with the initial crossbow bolt was not an actual hit of the bolt on the body of the player, but instead an indication that the player had to dodge out of the way of the bolt wearing him down a little (the ablative nature of hp being what it is).
As for your Runequest game, while that is very simulationist, I would argue it isnt much fun (for me at least). If you want an action heavy game that pathfinder/dnd is designed to be, there have to be some sacrifices. HP is one of those.
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Re your first comment, if/when I grouse about realism I suppose what I'm really on about is verisimilitude, or perhaps plausibility. Aristotle wrote, "It is better to portray a plausible unreality than an implausible reality," but everyone's definition of plausible is going to be at least a little bit different from each other's. Not to mention varying with time and a whole lot of other factors.Umm magical unerring missles fly from someones hands another creates matter from nothing (violating realism all to be damned). Verisimilitude means something different in a game with the ability to ignore physics. Plausibility gets thrown out with the bathwater in the game as written and why I encourage folks to play Dungeon World or Becoming Heroes or Iron Heroes.
I would say, instead, that verisimilitude means that if the laws of physics are ignored there's a reason for it. In essence, the rules that govern the game world reduce to the rules that govern our world in the absence of clearly-defined internal reasons to the contrary. (Which kind of throws out high HP humans without some interesting and creative mental gymnastics, but that's fun to do.)
My biggest problem with e6 is the fact you can still have fighters getting more damage, better saves, more AC, more HP and what not with feats, while the casters stagnant on ever being better magically speaking and get stuck with no extra spell slots. If the number of spells they got per day increased or they got some virtual slots to use metamagic with I probably wouldn't mind as much.
Going to an e10~12 would probably be a bit more my style (personally).
I have played in games before where it was simply, 'you're this level, you'll never level but everyone is pretty much based around the fact you are here."
I'd probably use an e12 variant, where the characters truely do become superheroes...but still should fear lots of things that lurk in the darkness.
I like E8, myself, but E12 would be good too (but about the upper limit).
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My biggest problem with e6 is the fact you can still have fighters getting more damage, better saves, more AC, more HP and what not with feats, while the casters stagnant on ever being better magically speaking and get stuck with no extra spell slots. If the number of spells they got per day increased or they got some virtual slots to use metamagic with I probably wouldn't mind as much.
Going to an e10~12 would probably be a bit more my style (personally).
I have played in games before where it was simply, 'you're this level, you'll never level but everyone is pretty much based around the fact you are here."
Casters can use feats to get more spell slots and different spells when they hit every 5000xp past 6th level. I have seen some people even allow a feat to gain access to a 4th level spell.
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The only issue I have with E6 is that it doesn't have a lot of granularity. One long term project I'd want to get to is just take the Pathfinder system and overhaul it so that the E6 scaling is exploded out to 10 to 12 levels of regular advancement.
I don't remember who it is but one of the Paizo people had a system where they broke down each actual level into 3 different sections....after a session you gain one of the 3 choices, he mentioned that he and some of the other Paizo people who play in his group use it as a houserule---
1 was a class's special abilities2 was saves, hp and bab
3 was skills and some other stuff....
when you added all three together it equals one whole level.
perhaps doing E6 (or E8 or whatever) and breaking down each level into 3 components and calling each a "level" is a way to achieve what you are looking to do.
...what is this "E6" that I've seen mentioned around the boards a few times lately?
Jiggy,
I was with you on this question. Every time I saw it mentioned in a topic title, I thought a system that only used d6's was being talked about. LoL
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SKR's Step System.I don't remember who it is but one of the Paizo people had a system where they broke down each actual level into 3 different sections....
A PbP I was playing in before the DM vanished used that, and (for all that we were only just before turning second level when the game folded) it seemed to work pretty well. It definitely punched up character power considerably.
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SKR's Step System.I don't remember who it is but one of the Paizo people had a system where they broke down each actual level into 3 different sections....
Thanks TOZ. I had forgotten which Paizite had created it and didn't save the link....all that is now remedied.
Just an FYI that E6 is made under 3.5 rules and xp for stuff. 5000 xp for your next feat would be replaced by the same amount of xp required to go from level 5 to level 6...in essence, you keep rebuying 6th level. Not sure how much xp that would be if you adapt it to Paizo.
==Aelryinth
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The GM I play under has a similar problem and as such most of his games end between 6-8 so I default end up playing E6/E8 wihtout the movers and shakers aspects. I just want him to be more upfront when we start a campaign that that's what is going to happen.
The difference with E6 is that everybody is capped at 6th level. Something similar will apply to monsters without class levels, so even Orcus is only going to be CR 11 or something.
The GM I play under has a similar problem and as such most of his games end between 6-8 so I default end up playing E6/E8 wihtout the movers and shakers aspects. I just want him to be more upfront when we start a campaign that that's what is going to happen.The difference with E6 is that everybody is capped at 6th level. Something similar will apply to monsters without class levels, so even Orcus is only going to be CR 11 or something.
So the DM is expected to totally re-write every creature in the Bestiary over CR3?
please keep your realism out of my FANTASY!!!!
so even Orcus is only going to be CR 11 or something.So the DM is expected to totally re-write every creature in the Bestiary over CR3?
Don't need to.
Take a Hezrou demon. Call it Orcus. CR 11 Orcus!
I totally understand the rationale behind E6, but can't help thinking that it's too heavy-handed. It's like going to Six Disney World Flags Land and being told "You can ride the kiddie rides, but we've shut down all the adult activities because some of them aren't fun."
All I can think is So shut down the unfun stuff! No need to ban three-quarters of the game.
There's intense difficulties in making any kind of casting balance stick.
d20 Modern did it by making wizardry a prestige class, so you couldn't even get into it until level 5, and there were only ten levels. Archmage was a further PrC that doubled your spells known and increased your caster level...but didn't introduce new spells or higher levels of them.
E6 could probably be expanded by allowing caster levels, bab, and HP to progress, as well as saves. That would keep martials important by still restricting casters to lower level spells.
Of course, you're also opening up higher level magic items, which brings with it its own problems.
==Aelryinth
I totally understand the rationale behind E6, but can't help thinking that it's too heavy-handed. It's like going to Six Disney World Flags Land and being told "You can ride the kiddie rides, but we've shut down all the adult activities because some of them aren't fun."
I see it more like going to Six Flag and getting the most out of your day by going only to the rides with no waiting line.
But I share the sentiment that something is left out in E6 that should have been there if it had been design as such.
'findel
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True. Although, since I feel that the Pathfinder rules are fairly stable up to 12th level or so...There is also the fact that 5th level in 3rd edition dnd (and thus pathfinder) pretty closely resembles the absolute peak of human ability. So in E6, the heroes are able to just get past what real human beings can actually do before they start to level off. The fighter is just a little bit tougher then the best soldier on earth, and the wizard is just a little bit smarter then einstein and steven hawking.
What this mean is that things that are rationally a threat remain a threat. It is good for dms that dont like the 'superhero' feel of mid to high levels. Falling off a cliff or into lava is still very deadly, and even magic is still with the bounds of the believable.
That's interesting, Kthulhu. Could you elaborate?