Hello, forum! Long-time reader, first time poster (as the cliché goes).
I'm making a low-lvl chr, and I'm sort of stuck for how to create the build (and some rp fluff). Basically, I have a concept, but lack the system mastery to implement it mechanically. Which is what I'm hoping to find some kind souls willing to help with ^^
While looking for ideas for my last chr, a hinyasi brawler, I discovered the Iron Caster concept. If anyone is unfamiliar, it's basically a fighter who uses Item Mastery feats for some magic (Thread). That chr was a pig herder out searching for a stolen griffin in a low-fantasy Viking-themed setting (it's a long story), so he was unfortunately completely wrong for making one.
The core idea for the chr is a young kid enamored with knights in shining armor but is little more than the "city outskirts" equivalent to a street urchin. Being a curious sort, the kid ends up meeting an old veteran while exploring. Except the "old veteran" is actually a fey, who has decided it would be funny to train the kid as a joke (not necessarily on the kid).
So basically... a naive youth who blends "romanticized ideal of knight" with "intentionally incorrect teachings of a trickster pretending to be a knight".
This will mostly be relevant to the rp fluff, but if there are ways to hint at it in the mechanics that would be neat.
Now, to the mechanics!
Spoiler:
I'm building the chr at lvl 2, and I expect the campaign to end no later than the low double-digits (quite possibly by lvl 9, even). So anything important should come online no later than lvl 5-ish (part of why I'm doing Iron Caster, as that is mostly online by 6).
The thing with Iron Caster is that it's not very "build intensive", so there's a lot of open stuff. Feats, especially.
Stats are 20-point buy.
Aside from going Iron Caster, I haven't really set anything in stone yet. So I'm pretty flexible with stuff like class, race (anything "likely to be found in/near a human-dominated city" goes, others need special approval), traits, feats... Anything I've missed? :p
Some general notes:
*Low-to-mid optimization level.
*It's a home game, so pretty much anything PF1 from the AoN should be fine.
*Iron Caster requires Adv. Weapon Training to function, so 4 levels of Weapon Master looks like it's going to be the quickest path. I'd appreciate alternatives, though; provided they don't delay things by more than 1-2 lvls ^^
*Medium or Heavy armor is a must, given the "knight" theme.
And, of course, a wishlist:
*Aiming for a mobile fighting style (I'm thinking one-handed sword with shield or possibly shielded gauntlet style for off-hand). I'm a bit torn between Spring Atk, Vital Strike, and Battle Dancer Brawler Rolling Fury builds.
*I'd love some kind of adaptable Teamwork thing, since I'm already flexing into combat feats and being a battlefield commander feels appropriate for the concept. Cavalier can't use Martial Flex feats with Tactician, so that's right out (unless I've missed an archetype?). But something like the Holy Tactician's Battlefield Presence, except which doesn't require Lawful alignment, would obviously be awesome. I'm assuming the reason I haven't found anything anywhere near as good is because it doesn't exist? :p
*If I can avoid Brawler, that'd be great (last chr was one). But a 1-2 lvl dip into Battle Dancer for Rolling Flurry & Martial Flex does seem pretty hard to beat >.<
I was thinking of using Occultist with the martial panoply to get pseudo-full-BAB and a bit of flexing (as a way around Brawler), but I'd much rather not have spellcasting (I do like its focus powers, though...)
Exemplar Brawler sadly doesn't mix with the Battle Dancer archetype, but might be an option for a Vital Strike build? The Teamwork stuff would come online really late, though :/
For stats, high Con for Iron Caster aside, I'm thinking "light focus" on Int and Dex? Bit of Cha, too, for that fey flavour? Just enough Str to get by, and Wis as dump stat (reflecting naiveté and curiosity-driven nature)?
The low Will shouldn't be too big an issue at the relevant levels, especially if I end up shoring it up with Occultist (or another good Will class).
Feat-wise, I really have no idea where to go. There's just too many possibilities :p
So... Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make this build happen? For example, individual abilities that would be a good fit? In particular with the requirement of things being online at pretty low levels...
Moving on to the fluffy side, I'm looking for inspiration to create a facsimile of a "code of conduct" except... not paladin-like at all (at least if you look closely at it).
Spoiler:
Ideally something inspired by fey (in a broad sense, not restricted to only Paizo's interpretation). I'm aiming for something with hints of Chaotic from the fey mixed with (idealized) Good from the kid's own ideas; probably a bit of blue-and-orange morality that comes across as self-contradictory (e.g. "deceive all you want, but always honor your word").
While I have a clear idea of the general behaviour that should result from it, so far I've only been able to draft it into a couple of fairly vague concrete points in terms of the "code" itself.
My ideas thus far:
*Appreciate cleverness, even when it's used against you (especially if it's funny)
*Indulge curiosity/Always ask questions (this is mostly to aid in moving the game, tbh)
*Value freedom and liberty - your own and others'
*If you freely agreed to the terms, abide by them
That's about it so far... Something in opposition to taking orders feels fitting, but I'm not sure what that might be.
Anyway, that's what I've got so far. I realize it's not very much, but I'm really hoping it's enough of a foundation and general direction that I can some suggestions to help make something of it.
The goal roughly being a nimble warrior with a bit of magic, though not outright spellcasting, and driven by ideals that aren't what one would expect of a knight.
I'm finding the greatest challenge to be the low level nature of the circumstances, since there are so many options I'm not familiar with out there. So I'm hoping the Mastery of the Boards can help me find solutions that work at more relevant levels ^^
Psychometrist vigilante gets focus powers without spellcasting. Poor fort save tho' which matters if you do the iron caster thing.
While using martial flexibility and the adv weapon training feat for item mastery is very flexible, just getting ~3 item mastery feats and an amazing base fort save may be enough flexibility with looser requirements.
There's some quite diverse cavalier order codes, tho' I'm not especially familiar with them.
Psychometrist vigilante gets focus powers without spellcasting. Poor fort save tho' which matters if you do the iron caster thing.
Thanks! At first glance, it does seem interesting. The "Dual Identity" thing confuses me, to be honest. But yeah, as you say the poor Fort save is really the main problem. Still, definitely worth a closer look!
avr wrote:
While using martial flexibility and the adv weapon training feat for item mastery is very flexible, just getting ~3 item mastery feats and an amazing base fort save may be enough flexibility with looser requirements.
That is true... I'll have to take a closer look at the feats and see how many are interesting and how many are more "situational tricks that would be fun to have".
avr wrote:
There's some quite diverse cavalier order codes, tho' I'm not especially familiar with them.
I've never played a Cavalier and only ever glanced through the order abilities for some of them. So I completely forgot they have "edicts" >.<
The easiest way to think of the dual identity is that 95% of the time adventuring you stay in the vigilante identity, the social identity is one you use when you're gathering information incognito or when your character retires to run an inn. Most social talents work when you're in the vigilante identity, avoid the ones which don't.
The cavalier order most in line with your idea is order of the blossom, which is themed around being a fey / First World guardian.
Based on the ideas you have posted for your ethos otherwise, it looks pretty similar to the paladin code of Chaldira, the main halfling goddess - especially if you look at the edicts and anathemas described for her in Second Edition material.
The easiest way to think of the dual identity is that 95% of the time adventuring you stay in the vigilante identity, the social identity is one you use when you're gathering information incognito or when your character retires to run an inn. Most social talents work when you're in the vigilante identity, avoid the ones which don't.
Ah, okay. Yeah, that does make things significantly easier. Thanks ^^
Sandslice wrote:
The cavalier order most in line with your idea is order of the blossom, which is themed around being a fey / First World guardian.
Based on the ideas you have posted for your ethos otherwise, it looks pretty similar to the paladin code of Chaldira, the main halfling goddess - especially if you look at the edicts and anathemas described for her in Second Edition material.
Okay, so, I think I've got my first few levels mostly sorted.
For stats, I'm thinking of going with:
Spoiler:
Str 14
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 10
I could lower Wis+Cha to 9 and raise Dex to 14, but I'm not sure how much that would really help. The Dex would still be low enough that I'll pretty much need to aim for heavy armor anyway, and I could always use the lv4 boost to even it out as is...
I have no idea what feat to pick at lvl 3, unfortunately. Barroom Brawler requires bab4, as does Spring Attack. I might go with Charging Stag Style, though I feel it's so situational that I might as well just flex into it if I need it (though I'd need to do so 1 round before using it, which could be an issue).
Then there's the question of whether extra uses of Barroom Brawler through Abundant Tactics is more useful than Warrior Spirit for weapon enchants... Which kind of depends on where I take the chr after this :/
Also, I don't really know where to go after lv5. I'm considering dipping one level of Vigilante (Psychometrist) to pick up the Transmutation Implement school (in which case Warrior Spirit becomes somewhat redundant), but that would cost 1 bab. Alternatively, 2 levels of Occultist instead would allow the Trappings of the Warrior panoply, returning the lost bab...
Or I could just go the simple route and continue as either Brawler (particularly if I can find a suitable archetype) or Weapon Master :p
Of course, still left is figuring out traits and race. Leaning towards Adaptive Magic (for UMD as class skill) for one trait, but for the other one...?
And race... anything with a bonus to Con, I guess? Or at least without a penalty to it :p
Avenger vigilante is full BAB. Psychometrists still get to pick avenger if they want. BTW, trappings of the warrior takes 6 levels of occultist - you need 3 implements for transmutation, abjuration and the trappings panoply.
You don't get a feat at Fighter 3 / Brawler 1. I guess you could retrain the L3 general feat to barroom brawler then. Though BB seems unnecessary with martial flexibility. Maybe get extra martial flexibility instead, no retraining required? And important, don't get advanced weapon training as a fixed feat as that prevents you using martial flexibility to pick it up on the fly which is the core of the iron caster.
Avenger vigilante is full BAB. Psychometrists still get to pick avenger if they want.
Ooh, that makes Psychometrist a lot more appealing...
avr wrote:
BTW, trappings of the warrior takes 6 levels of occultist - you need 3 implements for transmutation, abjuration and the trappings panoply.
They don't? But the Occultist table says "Implements 3" at lvl2. Is that referring to something else? (I admit, I am somewhat confused by the Occultist in general, but I thought it was mostly spell stuff...)
avr wrote:
You don't get a feat at Fighter 3 / Brawler 1. I guess you could retrain the L3 general feat to barroom brawler then. Though BB seems unnecessary with martial flexibility. Maybe get extra martial flexibility instead, no retraining required?{/quote]
Right you are! No feat at lvl 4. I wonder why my notes had one that. Must be from the straight Weapon Master progression I tried...
The point of BB is, if I've understood the guide correctly, to allow Martial Flexibility as a Swift action without 6 levels of Brawler (by way of Combat Stamina shenanigans).
avr wrote:
And important, don't get advanced weapon training as a fixed feat as that prevents you using martial flexibility to pick it up on the fly which is the core of the iron caster.
For ordinary fighters, this is very true. But the Weapon Master pulls a sneaky one on us by hiding the following in the Adv. Weapon Training feat's Special section:
Advanced Weapon Training (feat) wrote:
A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
So I do get one Adv. Wpn Training from the lvl4 Fighter Bonus feat without messing up the Iron Caster.
Finally, thank you again for your continuing quality input! It is appreciated ^^
They don't? But the Occultist table says "Implements 3" at lvl2. Is that referring to something else? (I admit, I am somewhat confused by the Occultist in general, but I thought it was mostly spell stuff...)
No you're right, I misremembered. And a glance at trappings now reminds me that they have another source of move-action martial flex.
Quote:
The point of BB is, if I've understood the guide correctly, to allow Martial Flexibility as a Swift action without 6 levels of Brawler (by way of Combat Stamina shenanigans).
I guess? Though a move action should be OK fairly often.
Quote:
Quote:
avr wrote:
And important, don't get advanced weapon training as a fixed feat as that prevents you using martial flexibility to pick it up on the fly which is the core of the iron caster.
For ordinary fighters, this is very true. But the Weapon Master pulls a sneaky one on us by hiding the following in the Adv. Weapon Training feat's Special section:
Advanced Weapon Training (feat) wrote:
A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
So I do get one Adv. Wpn Training from the lvl4 Fighter Bonus feat without messing up the Iron Caster.
Yeah, but if you get that fixed one then you can't flex into another until you have a full 5 levels of weapon master. And flexing into AWT is how you get item mastery feats, most of them aren't combat feats.
Quote:
Finally, thank you again for your continuing quality input! It is appreciated ^^
A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
So I do get one Adv. Wpn Training from the lvl4 Fighter Bonus feat without messing up the Iron Caster.
Yeah, but if you get that fixed one then you can't flex into another until you have a full 5 levels of weapon master. And flexing into AWT is how you get item mastery feats, most of them aren't combat feats.
I don't understand... Why does the bonus feat block flexing?
At lvl 4 Weapon Master, I get 1 Bonus Feat. If I spend that on Advanced Weapon Training, it doesn't count toward the "1 per 5 lvls of Fighter" restriction (per above). So how does it block me from flexing into a 2nd one? Have I missed another limitation somewhere?
Also, a related question. How is the once per 5 fighter lvls limitation calculated? Is it max 1 feat at fighter <9, max 2 at fighter 10-14? Or max 2 at fighter 6+? Or max 1 whenever, max 2 at ftr5+? Or... some other formula?
It's max zero at levels 1-4, max one at levels 5-9, max two at levels 10-14 etc. There's no 'minimum 1' usage listed which is why actually using the one 'free' feat which weapon master allows blocks you from flexing into it until level 5.
It's max zero at levels 1-4, max one at levels 5-9, max two at levels 10-14 etc. There's no 'minimum 1' usage listed which is why actually using the one 'free' feat which weapon master allows blocks you from flexing into it until level 5.
Okay, that's roughly what I figured. Fighter lvl/5, round down.
I wrote a whole thing (spoilered below, just in case), then I realized... It's kind of a moot point - brawler 1 + weapon master 4 counts as fighter 5 for the purpose of feats. So by the time I can flex into AWT, I already meet the prereqs to have max 1 non-bonus feat version of it. Unless the restrictions don't count as "effects"?
Spoiler:
That just leaves one bit of confusion... I was looking at it as "weapon masters ignore bonus feats when checking if they've reached the limit" (and, conversely, "ignore the limit when checking if they're eligible for selecting AWT as a bonus feat").
In which case, having a static bonus feat AWT doesn't affect whether or not a new AWT can be acquired - the limitation just basically pretends that bonus feat has been spent on something other than AWT.
So, with a max of 0 non-bonus feats at lvl 4, that means whether or not there's a bonus feat spent on AWT it can't be flexed into, right? (because the bonus feats referred to are "fighter bonus feats", not just any old thing that grants bonus feats?)
The way you are describing, it sounds more like the weapon master instead adds +1 to the normal maximums (so max 1 at lvl 1-4, max 2 at 5-9, etc)... So if I pick it up at lvl 4, I've hit the max. Is that what you mean?
