Spheres of Might: Brute Sphere, Drop and Hammer

[ShadowcatX]

If someone does a bullrush, and is successful by a significant margin can they "save" that distance, use drop, and then if they are successful on drop transform the saved distance into damage?

[Scavion]

I asked on the Spheres discord and the answer appears to be no. You resolve the bullrush first and then resolve the trip.

[ShadowcatX]

Thank you.

[Lirya]

I looked up the answer on discord and it is clearly wrong.

Drop wrote:

You may make a trip combat maneuver against the target as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you possess the Hammer talent, a successful trip allows you to use the ground to deal damage as if it were a wall

The relevant part here is that you get to treat the ground as if it were a wall. Since it doesn't say anything else you obviously have to otherwise follow the rules outlined in Hammer as long as that is possible.

Hammer wrote:

As long as you have martial focus, whenever you would bull rush, drag, or reposition a creature into a space occupied by a wall, creature, or object no more than one size smaller than the creature, the target of the maneuver stops its movement in the adjacent space and both the creature and the wall, other creature, or object suffer bludgeoning damage.

...

This damage is increased by the listed amount again for every 5-ft. square the creature would have traveled beyond the wall, other creature, or object.

So hammer requires you to move the creature into a wall. This requires at least 5 ft. of movement beyond the square next to the wall (as moving them adjacent to the wall isn't enough).

This means if you first resolve all the movement and then apply drop they will only end up prone on the ground without the forced movement left to push them into the ground and thus not take any damage from Hammer.

The argument in the spheres discord was that the timing requires you to resolve the whole bull rush before you get to apply the manhandle, but this is wrong.

CRB Combat Maneuvers wrote:

Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect.

Brute Sphere wrote:

When you successfully perform a bull rush, drag, reposition, or overrun combat maneuver (assuming the target decided to block you and did not simply move out of the way), you may apply the effect of one (manhandle) talent you know to that creature.

The key here is that the combat maneuver is a success when you make the CMB roll and then you apply the effects, giving the normal effect of the combat maneuver and the manhandle the same timing. Effectively the manhandle is just another effect from a performing successful combat maneuver.

So my understanding is that if you don't "save" any distance to use with drop, you don't get to deal any hammer damage.

[ShadowcatX]

Your understanding is flawed. You seem to want it to do more damage and so are throwing out the rules to do that.

Hammer wrote:

The amount of damage dealt is determined by the size of the creature being bull rushed, dragged, or repositioned, as indicated on the list below

You get the base damage irrespective of distance. Distance only increases the damage.

[Lirya]

The base damage still requires that you move them into the wall (meaning if the wall wasn't there, they would now be in the space occupied by the wall or beyond it), requiring a base distance of 5 ft. moved beyond the point where they were adjacent to it.

[ShadowcatX]

I explained it to you on reddit, I quoted the rule here, other rules people have verified it here. You've seen the verification on discord. The rules aren't going to change just because you choose not to listen to them.