Anyone who's read the APG's alternate favoured class bonus for human sorcerers will probably have already guessed at what this is about.
What on earth were they thinking when they gave the human sorcerer an extra spell per level?
Case in point:
Toughness adds 1 hp per level, approximately equivalent to the favoured class HP bonus.
Expanded Arcana: gives 2 extra spells known provided they are not at the highest present level. The human sorcerer's favoured class bonus gives one per level. So...you gain the benefit of this feat once every 2 levels, essentially.
I'm not saying that it makes sorcerers overpowered, but out of all the alternative favoured class bonuses, this one sticks very far out for being too strong.
After all the effort made to keep game balance intact, it seems they quite dropped the ball there. Or was there a typo somewhere? If it was even once per 4 levels, I would probably still consider it reasonable, if still rather powerful.
At least, that's my opinion. What do others think?
It looks powerful but I don't think it really is. The sorcerer has the lowest hit dice and lowest skill points per level. So choosing to take spells puts you at disadvantage in those areas. It's a choice you have to make. Not saying it's bad choice but if you do it you will have fewer hit points or fewer skills. More spells are nice though.
I don't think it breaks anything. Definitely make you think of playing a human sorcerer though. But then I don't pick a race based on optimized with class it is. I go for concept over optimization first then optimize from there.
It looks powerful but I don't think it really is. The sorcerer has the lowest hit dice and lowest skill points per level. So choosing to take spells puts you at disadvantage in those areas. It's a choice you have to make. Not saying it's bad choice but if you do it you will have fewer hit points or fewer skills. More spells are nice though.
I don't think it breaks anything. Definitely make you think of playing a human sorcerer though. But then I don't pick a race based on optimized with class it is. I go for concept over optimization first then optimize from there.
In having spent the last 2 years playing a sorcerer, I've found that the scope of a sorcerer's abilities is very much defined by what spells he knows. Furthermore, insofar as some spells are better suited for capitalising on an enemy's weaknesses than others, the sheer increased range of spells available to the human sorcerer seems to be very much an increase in power.
My gripe is not with sorcerers getting more power or that the ability itself makes sorcerers overpowered, but rather that it is *disproportionate* to a single hit point or skill point, because many spells do not diminish in utility even as higher level spells come into play.
That being said, I have read and noted JJ's posts on the matter in that other thread, and his refusal to address the matter further.
Anyone who's read the APG's alternate favoured class bonus for human sorcerers will probably have already guessed at what this is about.
What on earth were they thinking when they gave the human sorcerer an extra spell per level?
Case in point:
Toughness adds 1 hp per level, approximately equivalent to the favoured class HP bonus.
Expanded Arcana: gives 2 extra spells known provided they are not at the highest present level. The human sorcerer's favoured class bonus gives one per level. So...you gain the benefit of this feat once every 2 levels, essentially.I'm not saying that it makes sorcerers overpowered, but out of all the alternative favoured class bonuses, this one sticks very far out for being too strong.
After all the effort made to keep game balance intact, it seems they quite dropped the ball there. Or was there a typo somewhere? If it was even once per 4 levels, I would probably still consider it reasonable, if still rather powerful.
At least, that's my opinion. What do others think?
I scaled it down to one every odd level. That way they get one extra spell at every level except first which has 2 extra spells known.
I had used the battle sorcerer varient(3.5), and when I ended up with a medium BAB character that knew more spells than the sorc I decided to tone it down.
*disproportionate* to a single hit point or skill point, because many spells do not diminish in utility even as higher level spells come into play.
This is also a big issue for me. More spells may be ok, but if you give me a choice between a spell, a skill point, and a hit point, the spell wins.
This is also a big issue for me. More spells may be ok, but if you give me a choice between a spell, a skill point, and a hit point, the spell wins.*disproportionate* to a single hit point or skill point, because many spells do not diminish in utility even as higher level spells come into play.
Aye, I suppose this is the crux of the matter, that whilst a single hit point and single skill point are arguably equivalent in utility (a term I use in the economic sense, though I suppose in gaming terms, "power" might be the closest approximate term), an additional spell known for a sorcerer will more often than not provide more utility.
Moreover, limiting such a potent option to a single race seems to create a disproportionate incentive to play a human sorcerer rather than, say, a half-elven sorcerer. (The less philosophically-minded should stop reading here.) This runs contrary to the policy of encouraging options, since when one out of several options is significantly superior, other choices become illusory- not unlike being offered a choice between a Toyota and a Chevrolet.
It looks powerful but I don't think it really is. The sorcerer has the lowest hit dice and lowest skill points per level. So choosing to take spells puts you at disadvantage in those areas.
Skill points aren't really something most sorcerers lose any sleep over. Screw mundane skills for mundane idiots. Who needs that when you have liquid power coursing through your veins? You might only take skills for stuff you can't handle with magic because you didn't have any more spells known left. But guess what: You just got 20 more of them!
And hit points? Really? Arcanists never really suffered from HP lack that much. And with stuff like the increased HD, and the much improved Toughness feat around, you can afford to lose those HP. If you must, get magical aid in that regard: Bear's endurance, belts of being tough as nails, false life all help. Not totally neglecting constitution is not a bad idea, either.
And we're talking about last resort measures here. A sorcerer - especially one with tons of extra spells - can get plenty of spells that enable him to avoid hit point loss.
In my games, I adjusted it down to 1 spell per four levels. That means you effectively gain Expanded Arcana two and a half times. Still quite nice (two and a half feats over your career for nothing!) but not as ridiculous as getting it 10 times. The HP option is just 1 feat (Toughness).
Humans didn't need that help.
It looks powerful but I don't think it really is. The sorcerer has the lowest hit dice and lowest skill points per level. So choosing to take spells puts you at disadvantage in those areas.
This.
I've actually playtested this in two or three actual games now and I must say, it certainly increases versatility, but not actual power levels.
I am useful in more situations than I was before (which is good as no one likes to be on the sidelines). When it comes to resolving a given situation, however, I am about as effective as I was before. It's not like I can stay in the fight longer or can do more in a given round--that would be a real power increase.
A sorcerer - especially one with tons of extra spells - can get plenty of spells that enable him to avoid hit point loss.
I find that in practice this isn't all that true. You still can only get one spell off each round (under most circumstances) and the two or three rounds you spend putting up protective buffs is two or three rounds that you aren't really contributing to the encounter. Economy of actions is what makes the difference.
In my games, I adjusted it down to 1 spell per four levels. That means you effectively gain Expanded Arcana two and a half times. Still quite nice (two and a half feats over your career for nothing!) but not as ridiculous as getting it 10 times. The HP option is just 1 feat (Toughness).
Equating this favored class alternate to feats doesn't really work. You are really comparing apples to oranges. It also doesn't help that not all feats are created equal.
Humans didn't need that help.
Neither did any of the other races or classes that got cool abilities. Still I'm glad that we have some new options with which to enhance our games.
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Maybe not, but anything that helps poor old Sorcy be something more than idiot savant brother of Wizard is OK ;)
Humans didn't need that help.
I don't think the power-boost to sorcerers is at issue, mate. I think the issue is more with how it was implemented. Limiting the availability of this potent option to humans seems to create a disproportionate incentive for players seeking to play sorcerers to choose humans as a race.
Though perhaps in light of this, we should really be decrying unimaginative GMs who insist that everything in the books should be law and changing or adding/deleting anything from them is anathema. I know of at least 1 GM who has insisted that only humans should be able to pick this favoured class bonus "because the rule book says so".
Maybe not, but anything that helps poor old Sorcy be something more than idiot savant brother of Wizard is OK ;)
Humans didn't need that help.
Even being a 2nd class wizard is more than good enough though. The sorcerer is not lacking in the power department.
I think IF I was going to house rule it, I would give the sorcerer 1 level of extra spells known per class level, and the option to bank spell levels so he can save them up for higher level spells later in his career.
So the sorcerer would have tons of 1st level spells, or a few extra higher level spells.
Equating this favored class alternate to feats doesn't really work.
There's two options for favoured classes, and two feats that do the same thing. It doesn't just not work, it's actually very effective.
You are really comparing apples to oranges.
So? We're talking about fruit, after all.
Neither did any of the other races or classes that got cool abilities.
Big difference: New options are good. Options that are way over the top are not.
I don't think the power-boost to sorcerers is at issue, mate. I think the issue is more with how it was implemented. Limiting the availability of this potent option to humans seems to create a disproportionate incentive for players seeking to play sorcerers to choose humans as a race.
I agree. Sorcerers really need extra versatility to make them more attractive in comparison to wizards; but that'd be all sorcerers, not simply humans.
Which brings me to my other beef with the APG's alternate racial favoured class bonuses. Why doesn't every race have an alternate favoured class bonus for every class the way humans do? If members of every race can choose any class as their favoured one, then why only offer the non-human races a smattering of favoured-favoured classes?
My proposal to fix both issues is to use the human's alternate favoured class bonuses as a default list available to members of any race; available in addition to those offered specifically in their racial list. So what do humans get in exchange for sharing their list with everybody? Simple; they can in turn select an alternate favoured class bonus from any race's list. This proposal follows the philosophy that additional options for players is better than arbitrary limitations.
What do others think of this proposal?
Point 1:
Even being a 2nd class wizard is more than good enough though. The sorcerer is not lacking in the power department.Maybe not, but anything that helps poor old Sorcy be something more than idiot savant brother of Wizard is OK ;)
Humans didn't need that help.
Heh, I'll have to disagree on that one. I have personally come across a wizard that was so badly played (both in terms of combat-usefulness and character-role-playing) that when he died in an avalanche (that the entire party was caught in, but which he alone did not survive), no one in the party bothered to suggest raising him.
Point 2:
I don't think that Sorcerers are that underpowered. The ability to call on any spell you know on the fly can be very handy- for instance, both the wizard and the sorcerer can cast resilient sphere and black tentacles (both of which are immensely useful spells). The wizard however needs to decide at the start of the day how many he resilient sphere and how many black tentacles he will need for the day at the start of the day, whilst the sorcerer can choose between them as long as he has an available spell slot. The wizard's advantage is that he can also choose to prepare any other spell he has in his spell book whilst the sorcerer is limited to those few spells he knows.
But that is precisely why an extra spell known is such a potent ability. You don't stop getting excited about getting another fourth level spell known start learning sixth level spells. Even after learning Contingency, you will still be happy to add Dimension Door as a spell known on top of Black Tentacles, Resilient Sphere and Confusion. And even after that, you will still be happy to add enervation and improved invisibility, because they all serve different useful functions, and the option of being able to pull one on the fly will almost always overshadow that benefit of having an additional hit point.
Point 3:
Again, I don't think the issue is with the feature itself, but rather the way it was introduced to the system, being limited to a single race. And as JJ has pointed out, it is up to individual GMs to adjudicate the suggested options.
I suppose my true gripe is against inflexible GMs who treat splat books as absolute rules, and will insist that only humans should be able to choose this benefit "because the rule book says that only humans can choose it".
If you are afraid of sorcerers encroaching on wizards, don't forget that (some) wizards can become semi-spontaneous casters using a few magic items from the APG, if only spontaneous for one school.
That, and wizards don't have to prepare all their spells at once. They can leave some empty and prepare again later in the day, based on which spells they have expended. They are more adaptable than a lot of people seem to think. Pearls of power help, too.
It looks powerful but I don't think it really is. The sorcerer has the lowest hit dice and lowest skill points per level. So choosing to take spells puts you at disadvantage in those areas.This.
I've actually playtested this in two or three actual games now and I must say, it certainly increases versatility, but not actual power levels.
Here's my point of view:
Looking at the favoured class bonuses in the APG, it seems to me that a single level's worth of favoured class ability is worth at best about 1/4 of a feat. For instance:
- 1 bonus skill point is 1/5 of the feat Open Minded from the 3.5 Expanded Psionic Handbook
- 1 bonus hit point is 1/3 (at best) of the Toughness feat
- 1/2 bonus to an alchemist's bombs per day (gnome alchemist) is 1/4 of the feat Extra Bombs
- +1/2 to some Diplomacy and Intimidate checks (human druid) is 1/4 (at best) of the feat Persuasive
- 1/6 of a rogue talent (human rogue) is 1/6 of the feat Extra Rogue Talent
- 1/2 of a ki point (human monk) is 1/4 of the feat Extra Ki
- 1 extra round of bardic performance is 1/6 of the feat Extra Performance
- 1 extra foot of movement (elf barbarian) is 1/5 of the feat Fleet
- +1/2 bonus on confirming criticals with a single weapon (elf ranger) is 1/8 (!) of the feat Critical Focus
- reducing the non-proficiency penalty of a weapon by 1 (dwarf oracle) is 1/4 of the feat Martial/Exotic Weapon Proficiency
(I could go on and on for quite a while, but you get the point.) But one extra spell of one level lower is 1/2 of the feat Expanded Arcana. That's rather inconsistent, if you ask me.
I think IF I was going to house rule it, I would give the sorcerer 1 level of extra spells known per class level, and the option to bank spell levels so he can save them up for higher level spells later in his career.
So the sorcerer would have tons of 1st level spells, or a few extra higher level spells.
I think that unless the player knew he was in a low level game he would save up for the higher levels. One 5th level spell is often better than five level one spells.
I ran into this when I was selecting spells for my human oracle (the oracle FCB is the same as the sorcerer).
Honestly, I don't think it's that good. It would be if you could select a max level spell but you can't. I would only see myself taking this trait once, maybe twice to pack in a couple extra spells like Greater Magic Weapon or Heal close to when they are available. The reason is that as you advance levels, you get additional lower level spells. The extra spell slots you get from the FCB get swallowed up by the glut of additional low level spells gained as you advance in level, and before long become dead weight. By dead weight I mean they don't really see as much use as an extra HP or SP would.
Bottom line: Is the litle bit of extra versatility nice? Sure, when you need it. Is it as useful as often as an extra HP or SP? Not in my opinion, especially not for a Battle Oracle (my character). Is it overpowered? Not really.
Point 1:
Heh, I'll have to disagree on that one. I have personally come across a wizard that was so badly played (both in terms of combat-usefulness and character-role-playing) that when he died in an avalanche (that the entire party was caught in, but which he alone did not survive), no one in the party bothered to suggest raising him.
Even being a 2nd class wizard is more than good enough though. The sorcerer is not lacking in the power department.
Any class can be played to be ineffective. Do I need a disclaimer of "assuming the player is competent" in front of all of my posts?
No I am not being snarky. I just think the inept player excuse is a fallacy that is overused and is no more valid than trying to invoke rule 0 in the rules forum.
I ran into this when I was selecting spells for my human oracle (the oracle FCB is the same as the sorcerer).
Honestly, I don't think it's that good. It would be if you could select a max level spell but you can't. I would only see myself taking this trait once, maybe twice to pack in a couple extra spells like Greater Magic Weapon or Heal close to when they are available. The reason is that as you advance levels, you get additional lower level spells. The extra spell slots you get from the FCB get swallowed up by the glut of additional low level spells gained as you advance in level, and before long become dead weight. By dead weight I mean they don't really see as much use as an extra HP or SP would.
Bottom line: Is the litle bit of extra versatility nice? Sure, when you need it. Is it as useful as often as an extra HP or SP? Not in my opinion, especially not for a Battle Oracle (my character). Is it overpowered? Not really.
If you have spells certain skills can be ignored and you dont have to worry about hit points because the spell should greatly increase your chances of never getting hurt.
With that said I can't say it is overpowered, but the it is heads and tails above the other choices you have regarding what race to take, and where to put that skill point.I am house-ruling it, but me house-ruling something does not mean it is ok. I still have not read the entire book, but I am happy with most of the browsing I have done.
Edit: I did not know the oracle got a similar ability, and since I don't know the oracle's spell list that well I don't know how much as extra spell helps them. I do know the core arcane spell list pretty well though.
I ran into this when I was selecting spells for my human oracle (the oracle FCB is the same as the sorcerer).
Honestly, I don't think it's that good. It would be if you could select a max level spell but you can't. I would only see myself taking this trait once, maybe twice to pack in a couple extra spells like Greater Magic Weapon or Heal close to when they are available. The reason is that as you advance levels, you get additional lower level spells. The extra spell slots you get from the FCB get swallowed up by the glut of additional low level spells gained as you advance in level, and before long become dead weight. By dead weight I mean they don't really see as much use as an extra HP or SP would.
Bottom line: Is the litle bit of extra versatility nice? Sure, when you need it. Is it as useful as often as an extra HP or SP? Not in my opinion, especially not for a Battle Oracle (my character). Is it overpowered? Not really.
If you have spells certain skills can be ignored and you dont have to worry about hit points because the spell should greatly increase your chances of never getting hurt.
With that said I can't say it is overpowered, but the it is heads and tails above the other choices you have regarding what race to take, and where to put that skill point.
I am house-ruling it, but me house-ruling something does not mean it is ok. I still have not read the entire book, but I am happy with most of the browsing I have done.
I agree that for the most part this book has alot of good stuff in it, and have discussed several uses of some of the options in the book in other threads.
Truthfully, this is perhaps the only disappointment I have had with the book, and even then, insofar as part of my incredulity lies in it being an option specifically given only to humans, my gripe might lie more with inflexible and pedantic GMs who regard the rules as all but biblical.
I ran into this when I was selecting spells for my human oracle (the oracle FCB is the same as the sorcerer).
Honestly, I don't think it's that good. It would be if you could select a max level spell but you can't. I would only see myself taking this trait once, maybe twice to pack in a couple extra spells like Greater Magic Weapon or Heal close to when they are available. The reason is that as you advance levels, you get additional lower level spells. The extra spell slots you get from the FCB get swallowed up by the glut of additional low level spells gained as you advance in level, and before long become dead weight. By dead weight I mean they don't really see as much use as an extra HP or SP would.
Bottom line: Is the litle bit of extra versatility nice? Sure, when you need it. Is it as useful as often as an extra HP or SP? Not in my opinion, especially not for a Battle Oracle (my character). Is it overpowered? Not really.
If you have spells certain skills can be ignored and you dont have to worry about hit points because the spell should greatly increase your chances of never getting hurt.
With that said I can't say it is overpowered, but the it is heads and tails above the other choices you have regarding what race to take, and where to put that skill point.
I am house-ruling it, but me house-ruling something does not mean it is ok. I still have not read the entire book, but I am happy with most of the browsing I have done.I agree that for the most part this book has alot of good stuff in it, and have discussed several uses of some of the options in the book in other threads.
Truthfully, this is perhaps the only disappointment I have had with the book, and even then, insofar as part of my incredulity lies in it being an option specifically given only to humans, my gripe might lie more with inflexible and pedantic GMs who regard the rules as all but biblical.
I am a biblical DM sometimes, but only to avoid houserule bloat. I do understand that you were talking about those that stand by the book no matter what.
Bottom line: Is the litle bit of extra versatility nice? Sure, when you need it. Is it as useful as often as an extra HP or SP? Not in my opinion, especially not for a Battle Oracle (my character). Is it overpowered? Not really.
The problem (for me) is that there's not much competition between:
- A level 10 human sorcerer with the Toughness feat (10 extra hp) and 6 extra (lower-level) spells, and
- A level 10 human sorcerer with the Extra Arcana feat (2 extra lower-level spells) and 10 extra hp
Frankly, if the Extra Arcana feat was much more powerful, I don't think people would be quite as concerned about the human sorcerer favoured class option.
Big difference: New options are good. Options that are way over the top are not.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I really don't think this particular option is over the top at all.
I have personally come across a wizard that was so badly played (both in terms of combat-usefulness and character-role-playing) that when he died in an avalanche (that the entire party was caught in, but which he alone did not survive), no one in the party bothered to suggest raising him.
Jeeze. Was he regularly catching his comrades in his fireballs or something?
Edit: I did not know the oracle got a similar ability, and since I don't know the oracle's spell list that well I don't know how much as extra spell helps them. I do know the core arcane spell list pretty well though.
Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, Witches and Wizards also get the same bonus.
Jeeze. Was he regularly catching his comrades in his fireballs or something?
I have seen it also actually. Wizards are actually fairly complicated to play to their potential, and I have seen wizards have totally the wrong spells for a situation and literally not being able to do anything in a given combat. I could easily see someone having trouble with the class and simply not knowing which spells are best to use and prepare.
Big difference: New options are good. Options that are way over the top are not.We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I really don't think this particular option is over the top at all.
So spells, hit points, and skill points are equal in value?
See, I don't care too much if options are not totally equal, really.
This one seems to me just a little bit too good, but if makes things troublesome, just make it 1/2 spell each level. Powerful, but less no-brainer.
my gripe might lie more with inflexible and pedantic GMs who regard the rules as all but biblical.qq. In all likelihood, your gripe is with your GM, who won't let you take this bonus for your sorceror, and you want it.
More that this is a modified position, in light of JJ's official stance on the issue (that all rules are "suggested", and GMs should modify them as they see fit).
See, I don't care too much if options are not totally equal, really.
This one seems to me just a little bt too good, but if makes thigs troublesome, just make it 1/2 spell each level. Powerful, but less no-brainer.
Agreed; that would put it right on the "1/4 of a feat" benchmark.
I agree, it's way too good.
During the preview, we were told to reserve judgement because we hadn't seen what the other races got . Now that we've seen that, I don't expect to see any more nonhuman sorcerers in my games. It's a shame.
Ken
I would just house rule it. I said 1/2 split earlier, but I think I will go with a 1/4 split of the highest level spell the caster can cast.
Agreed; that would put it right on the "1/4 of a feat" benchmark.See, I don't care too much if options are not totally equal, really.
This one seems to me just a little bt too good, but if makes thigs troublesome, just make it 1/2 spell each level. Powerful, but less no-brainer.
There is of course the problem of telling a player "You learn half a spell this level".
GM: Ok, you learn 1/2 Resilient Sphere this level.
Player: So...can I cast Resilient Hemisphere? XD
Btw, I'm joking.
Agreed; that would put it right on the "1/4 of a feat" benchmark.
It would be very easy to make an errata, just in case.... :)
So spells, hit points, and skill points are equal in value?Big difference: New options are good. Options that are way over the top are not.We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I really don't think this particular option is over the top at all.
I think it is highly situational.
A sorcerer with a 14 or 16 Constitution likely won't care too much for the extra hit points and will go for the extra skills or spells since they are "more powerful."
A sorcerer with a 10 constitution on the other hand will think of those bonus hit points as being far more "powerful" than the spells or skills (a dead sorcerer can't use ANY spells after all).
I think that trying to shoehorn hit points, skill points, and spells known into static comparable "levels of power" is a mistake from the start since its all going to vary highly based on the character build and/or the player's point of view.
Just because it LOOKS good on paper doesn't mean it IS good in practice. I Have lots or play experience with sorcerers both before AND after the new rules. Do you?
You and KaeYoss are both experienced roleplayers. As such I'm sure you know the value of true playtesting and the folly of misleading kneejerk reactions.
It would be very easy to make an errata, just in case.... :)
Agreed; that would put it right on the "1/4 of a feat" benchmark.
I could be wrong, but I think Paizo might have a policy against releasing erratas...something about moving forward, if memory serves.
There's also the fact that in the thread following the preview to the APG, it was explicitly stated that this was not an 'error'.
I think it is right on the mark, fixes a problem with the Sorcerer which I've always perceived. I'll probably make it available to all races, though, to prevent the Sorcerer to become a "humans only" class.
People who want to nerf if into oblivion ( which is making it 1/4 as effective as it was before ) should test it in their game before overreacting.
I think the real problem with this bonus is that it scales with level. Whilst an extra hit point from 9 to 10 is is really good in the beginning, going from 94 to 95 doesn't matter. However knowing an extra 0 spell in the beginning is fun, getting another 8th level spell is an amazing ability.
It looks powerful but I don't think it really is. The sorcerer has the lowest hit dice and lowest skill points per level. So choosing to take spells puts you at disadvantage in those areas.Skill points aren't really something most sorcerers lose any sleep over. Screw mundane skills for mundane idiots. Who needs that when you have liquid power coursing through your veins? You might only take skills for stuff you can't handle with magic because you didn't have any more spells known left. But guess what: You just got 20 more of them!
And hit points? Really? Arcanists never really suffered from HP lack that much. And with stuff like the increased HD, and the much improved Toughness feat around, you can afford to lose those HP. If you must, get magical aid in that regard: Bear's endurance, belts of being tough as nails, false life all help. Not totally neglecting constitution is not a bad idea, either.
And we're talking about last resort measures here. A sorcerer - especially one with tons of extra spells - can get plenty of spells that enable him to avoid hit point loss.
Humans didn't need that help.
I guess I come at from as DM, I don't get play often as player. So for me when building a bad guy sorcerer the hit points are what I'd take for them first. Skills come up second if I want the sorcerer to be skilled as an NPC. The extra spells known from this angle isn't that useful. But then when you have a bad guy sorcerer you usually only get few spell off before you go splat so it's not really like versatility comes into play like it would with PC sorcerer.
The one time I did play a Sorcerer it was a Draconic bloodline one with DD prestige class for 4 levels. Having claws and a high strength had me in melee next to the fighter helping to set up flanking for the rogue. The Favored class hit point sure helped and toughness was freebie at 7th level. So I guess it depends on your build. I don't think I'd have taken extra known spells with that Character.
I could be wrong, but I think Paizo might have a policy against releasing erratas...something about moving forward, if memory serves.
There's also the fact that in the thread following the preview to the APG, it was explicitly stated that this was not an 'error'.
No, they do issue errata (e.g. fixing typos). But I agree that this falls into the "not an error" category.
Which brings me to my other beef with the APG's alternate racial favoured class bonuses. Why doesn't every race have an alternate favoured class bonus for every class the way humans do? If members of every race can choose any class as their favoured one, then why only offer the non-human races a smattering of favoured-favoured classes?
The FC rules as they are in the core rules don't make sense, anyway. That's why I have kicked them out of the game.
Now that there is some diversity back in, I'll partially re-instated them - you'll have to take a feat to get the bonuses.
So spells, hit points, and skill points are equal in value?Big difference: New options are good. Options that are way over the top are not.We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I really don't think this particular option is over the top at all.I think it is highly situational.
A sorcerer with a 14 or 16 Constitution likely won't care too much for the extra hit points and will go for the extra skills or spells since they are "more powerful."
A sorcerer with a 10 constitution on the other hand will think of those bonus hit points as being far more "powerful" than the spells or skills (a dead sorcerer can't use ANY spells after all).
I think that trying to shoehorn hit points, skill points, and spells known into static comparable "levels of power" is a mistake from the start since its all going to vary highly based on the character build and/or the player's point of view.
Just because it LOOKS good on paper doesn't mean it IS good in practice. I Have lots or play experience with sorcerers both before AND after the new rules. Do you?
You and KaeYoss are both experienced roleplayers. As such I'm sure you know the value of true playtesting and the folly of misleading kneejerk reactions.
My casters take spells(mirror image, invisibilty, fly, and so on) that make it so their hit points don't get affected too much. If I end up with a low con(only if I had to roll) I would take toughness(for the purpose of hit points it is just as good as a 12 con) then take the spells. At the least I would take the hp at low levels then switch fully to spells.
In an all or nothing scenario(you must choose spells vs the other two) the spells win hands down to me. I know that is not the case, but for the purpose of evaluation value that is the best way to look at it, IMHO.I like the idea of extra spells as a variant class feature or maybe a set of feats, but not as something from favored points, and that only works for humans. My players are already predisposed to play humans.
The only class I have never played(as a DM or player) is a bard, not counting the new APG classes.
I don't know the oracle's spell list that well
Let me try to explain that list:
First, think of the cleric spell list.
Second, wait, actually, that's it!
:P
(Oracles use the cleric list).