It is my understanding that acrobatics is part of movement. So if you had a creature (medium sized quadruped) with +20 jumping skill in a tree.
1) Given a sufficient number of properly spaced branches could they "climb" the tree by high jumping 2' over and over again up to their speed? High jumping 2' without a 10' move is a dc 16 Acrobatics check.
2) In a related question, if you end you turn having moved 10' before a high jump check and your 1st action next turn is to continue jumping, would the "moved 10' from the 1st round" still be applicable?
Both RAW, RAI and "how you would rule it" are welcome.
I think RAW 1) yes, 2) no.
I would say yes to both, if they haven't moved and did some other action, then they haven't stopped, they are just frozen in time. However, if they got to the ledge while being chased and readied and attack (or even immediately attacked without readying) against someone else who might come up behind them, then it would be fair to say they stopped moving.
Raw doesn't really distinguish between movement in vertical directions, as the game assumes only the 2d grid is relevant, but if their specific goal is to go up a tree, then their speed would be the vertical distance they can achieve in a round (or double if double "jumping"). The acrobatics check is a part of the movement so you don't have to spend actions each jump, and then the DC becomes whatever the difference between footings. The only extra clarification here is that unless they actually jump high enough to actually land on their feet, they then need to spend 5ft of movement (doubled to 10ft) to climb up the ledge of the branch. You may also want to halve the vertical jumping movement speed like climbing is halved, but there is nothing in the rules that makes that RAW.
as long as they start the action by yelling; "PARKOUR!" then yes, I'd allow it.
seriously though, if I've provided a surface with such perfectly spaced platforms, I'd allow it, as I expect a suitably dramatic solution to the obstacle, not an mind-numbing five round ordeal of Climb checks. Even mechanically I think its legit and balanced. They may be able to ascend faster than typical climbing, but they miss a check, even by 1, and it's going to be a painful ride back to the bottom.
yeah I agree it should be difficult. It's not something I see a level 1 thru 8ish doing with any major chance of success. But if the option is there at all, it's because I as DM have set it up to be there. Trees with magically aligned branches just don't randomly appear. Your example I think is right on the money with cascading DCs, it should get harder the farther you have to go, as branches aren't a uniform distance, diameter or smoothness. It should be an impressive feat, like it is when Jackie does it and I think a character who has spent a dozen+ ranks in Acrobatics should reap some reward, if they can make those rolls. The advantage may be speed over the climber, but again it should come with some pretty good hits if they fail, whereas the climber is probably only facing a DC 15 at most for climbing the tree and only falls on a 10 or less and then has a decent chance of catching themselves if they do somehow manage to fall. So speed and danger vs. slow and safe. I think that is fair mechanically, and really by the time a character can pull that off with any routine amount of success, most of the rest of the group can walk through dimensions, so I don't see the big deal.
I think its important to take into consideration that jumps can't exceed your normal movement. Likewise, you can't move 30' up a climbable surface with normal movement. Either you need to have a climb speed or be limited by the speed the climb skill would give you (1/4 your normal move).
You should be able to spend future actions to continue your movement mid air if you exceed your speed in a single jump. Say turn one your run speed is 120ft, but your jump check somehow let you jump 200ft; you can spend your entire second turn continuing to run as you ended your first turn still in the air from the jump. Also, my bad, I thought climb speed was just half movement, not 1/4.
Also jumping isn't climbing and it also isn't grabbing onto a limb while you jump. I'd probably require a DC 10 climbing check after each jump, which would also be the same DC 10 if they just used their move action to climb without jumping.
Grasping is a free action, if you can reach a limb or a ledge, there's no check to grasp it, just to pull yourself up. That's literally part of the "If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side" line from jumping in acrobatics (the DC being enough to land on your feet without having to pull yourself up).
A run is a single full round action, maybe you'd have to make a second acrobatics check for the second round while you are still in the air to "stick the landing", but I think that's a bit unnecessary by that point.
Maybe 200' was a tad far, we could go with a level 20 monk who is heavily encumbered because he is carrying another downed party member over his shoulder and needs to clear a 80ft gap. He doesn't have a 80' run speed, he has 60' (3*20'; 20' base because encumbrance removes fast movement), but he can spend a ki point, giving him an acrobatics check of +79 (20ranks+3classskill-6encumerance+6skillfocus+10improvedringofjumping+6dex+ 20highjump+20kipoint) meaning even on a nat 1, he can clear the jump if we allow that you can still be in the air midjump between rounds. (There is also the level 20 accrobatics skill unlocks that basically doubles your check, so if you can get a couple more points eeked out, it's perfectly possible to make a 200' standing jump.)
Considering that there's only one of three archetypes that removes fast movement that also removes high jump, and that there is actually nothing that says what happens when you breach your movement speed, I doubt those archetypes are just meant to waste the other class ability. The skill just says you can't move past your max movement speed for that particular round, not that a single jump can't carry you for multiple rounds.
it says you can't exceed your maximum movement for the round. Doesn't say anything about landing. For these extremely long jumps, see the Hulk in any of his movies, where he has serious hang time if you need some way to visualize it.
Is that really an issue that can happen in Pathfinder though? If we are treating maximum movement as is figured with a run (I tend to think it means in their current method of movement; so if they are taking a move action, the maximum would be their Speed, whereas if they are jumping while charging or running it will be based on that speed), can someone get that sort of modifier with a character? In older additions, with the speed multipliers, it was possible, but Pathfinder brought gravity back into the mix and even a base character's speed, reaching +100 or higher doesn't seem feasible.
Run speed requires you to move in only a straight line. I think jumping means you wouldn't be able to do so.
it says you can't exceed your maximum movement for the round. Doesn't say anything about landing. For these extremely long jumps, see the Hulk in any of his movies, where he has serious hang time if you need some way to visualize it.
You fall 500 ft per round. Sadly there is no hangtime in Pathfinder, but there are nice 3rd party rules out there that tweak stuff like this.
Something to keep in mind is your speed is not your max movement, it's just how far you move in the turn. If you have a base speed of 30 unmodified and unencumbered, and you single move, your speed is 30'; if you double move, your speed is 60'; if you run, your speed is 120'. If you go your max movement, then your speed coincidentally is your max movement, but they still aren't the same thing.
And yes, mathematically, it can become a problem for certain classes, archetypes, and feat selections where double their acrobatics check exceeds their movement.
The 500ft of falling assumes terminal velocity, and isn't a bad estimate of that, but if you are leaping upward, that significantly reduces the amount of "falling" that can be done. For example, if we assume that a person is perfectly rising and then falling for 3 seconds each in the jump (1 turn), on earth gravity, they only need to have an apex of the jump of 44.1' (4.9'/s^2*(3s)^2). If we round up to 45' and quadruple that for how far a long jump needs to be to reach that height in the middle of the jump (180'), that number is easily reachable with the skill unlock. This is also why the quartering of of acrobatics for a running vertical jump doesn't make sense to me, as with a little bit of error, you already jump vertically a quarter of the horizontal distance in a long jump just to end at the starting height, but argument for a different day.
And again, running in a straight line is only relative to the 2 dimensional grid of the game. You can run down a hill even if the hill levels off before the end of your movement, as long as its otherwise in a straight line, so why can't you jump in a straight (two dimensional) line?
You can run down a hill even if the hill levels off before the end of your movement, as long as its otherwise in a straight line, so why can't you jump in a straight (two dimensional) line?
To my humorous surprise, Hills specifically state you can run and charge down them. You can't run/charge up them.
Yeah, you can't run up them because have tried running up a significant hill? Even if you are super fit as *all* TTRPG players tend to be, you're definitely slower moving than running on a mostly flat surface.
Boots of Striding and Springing give an effective +9 for Acrobatics. Enhanced speed for +4 and the explicit +5 for Acrobatics. Class skill and 7 combined ranks and dex bonus mean a Take-1 gets a 20 on Acrobatics.
I would be OK with multiple jumps up 2' each. But I would be wary of easy 2' jumps in a row. Circumstances can easily cause the DC to go up. Other possibilities are a missing or broken jump point. Given the Immovable Rod, and the legacy of using a pair to climb up to great heights, I think it is OK to allow this.
As to jumping 200', my Ninja, with 11 ranks of Acrobatics, has a Take-1 of 31 (or 51 w/a ki point) which nets 62' (102'). Add in a Akitonian Blade, and it becomes 186' (306'). Now the problem is the jump distance cap for Acrobatics. :-)
Take-10 gets: 80' (120'); 240' (360').
/cevah
That's the thing, assuming you are able to move as such, you can just move 30ft straight up with a move action; the acrobatics check is just a check to see if you can move as such. To me, the acrobatics check would need to be calculated based off the maximum (of the individual minimums) distance between each place where you could land on your feet instead of having to pull yourself up with a climb (as you burn more movement doing so while you are at a slower speed). Think the old school assassin's creeds: you have those weird carts that look like an oversized set of stairs, you just jump three times and keep going without really stopping; it's the same thing but more vertical.
So, if someone (who has a 30' movement speed) were to only have a single ledge 30' in the air that they need to reach (and they're treated as having a running start), they need to reach an acrobatics DC of 120, which as I and Cevah have shown isn't that outlandish, to land squarely on their feet at the end of their movement. If instead there was a branch or similar foot hold every 5' in the way up, you would only need to pass a DC20 acrobatics check. If there were only a quarter foot between each foothold, well that's a DC1 acrobatics, also known as a staircase, and (normal) stairs aren't difficult terrain so a person could just as easily ascend the 30' of stairs without a check (unless they have really bad dex, armor check, encumbrance, etc. and are unable to take 10).
My ninja does not have the blade. :-(
That said, he normally has an effective speed of 40' with the boots, and has a max move of 4x when running. This gives a max distance of 160' unless he spends a ki point to bump his speed by 20' for a max 240'. If instead he casts Cheetah's Sprint, his speed becomes 10x over the round (=150' [and a +44 check] assuming a double move as normal). So far, he has not yet reached his cap. :-)
As to multiple 2' jumps, I would describe it to the GM, show that the Take-1 makes it automatic, and then tell the GM I am doing it and ask if any problems come up.
How many jumps per round? As many as you want as long as the total distance does not exceed your cap.
My ninja on a Take-1 can only jump up 15' (25'). [10th level ninja halvs the DC for jumping.]
I agree that explaining the mechanics to show I can automatically do what I say, then following with a narration is definitively cooler. I once described my ninja jumping up out of shallow water to run to flank a baddie using a double move then sinking back in at the end of the move.
Last thing: with such jumping skill, you can cover difficult terrain without slowing down since you are not actually walking across it.
/cevah
Lets say I want to move 40' in a line. The ground is as illustrated:
TT_TT_TT
Where "T" is regular ground, and "_" is a pit.
I move 10' and jump 5' then move 10' more and jump 5' and finally move 10' for a total of 40'. I cannot think of a GM that would not allow this movement.
With my speed of 40', this only needs one move. With a Take-1, I easily clear both jumps. Nowhere in the skill does it limit you to a single jump in a move action. It only states making one check per jump.
Sorry, but you are going to have to apologize. :-/
/cevah
"a jump" is independent of an action spent. If I need to jump 5 times as I cross a bunch of beams, I need to make a check based on the distance between each beam (and for simplicity's sake, I would just make a player roll for the largest gap, and if he makes that, assume he makes all the shorter and therefore easier jumps as well).