Questions about the Reclusive Oracle Curse

[WombattheDaniel]

The Curse in Question:

Reclusive: You are reclusive and paranoid to the point that your allies cannot easily help you in times of stress or unease. Whenever you are in combat, your allies must succeed at a melee touch attack to affect you with touch spells, and you must attempt saving throws to resist all spells cast by anyone other than yourself, even those cast by allies. Instantaneous spells you cast only on yourself affect you as though your caster level were 1 higher. At 5th level, any spells you cast only on yourself affect you as if they were modified by the Extend Spell feat. This does not increase their level or casting time. At 10th level, you are immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. At 15th level, you gain spell resistance equal to 10 + your oracle level.

So I was doing some reading and I came across this curse. It's a cool one, to be sure, but it opened up some very interesting questions for me.

The main one deals with the phrasing of this sentence: ...and you must attempt saving throws to resist all spells cast by anyone other than yourself, even those cast by allies...

The wording seems (at least to me) that the Oracle must make saving throws for all spells, from any source--both enemies and allies.

So the questions are:

1. Does this mean that the Oracle MUST make a saving throw against all spells, including harmful ones that don't normally allow a saving throw?

2. Is that what the Devs intended?

3. Does this revelation apply to Spell-Like Abilities?

[Fentomy]

1. Looks like it, though any GM with an IQ higher than a toaster will rule that it’s only going to apply to beneficial spells.

2. Not likely, though the wording makes this unclear.

3. From the SRD:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

I would rule yes, since it says they function like spells, and many offer a save, but I could see others ruling no.

[Fentomy]

Looking more deeply at it, I’m inclined to actually say that this might have been intended. Why would they specifically say, “and you must attempt saving throws to resist all spells cast by anyone other than yourself, even those cast by allies”? They’re calling out you, and allies. That seems OP, but it also seems like it was the intent, unless it was just a massive oversight.

[Melkiador]

If a spell doesn’t list a saving throw, then this can’t tack one on. Which save would you use and what would the effect of saving be?

[Diego Rossi]

As Melkiador sid, a reclusive oracle must attempt a saving throw against all spells, but the result will be meaningless it the description of the spells doesn't specify an effect for the save.

I think it is important to specify that "beneficial" spells don't exist as a category.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Even if the oracle has to attempt a saving throw vs a spell that does not allow a saving throw does not mean that the saving throw actually does anything. If the spell in question does not allow a saving throw than making the save is meaningless and does nothing. So RAW an oracle with the Reclusive curse would have to attempt a saving throw vs all spells. If the spell allows a saving throw than if the oracle makes the save he takes whatever affect the save gives, if the save does not allow a saving throw making the save does not do anything.

[Sandslice]

WombattheDaniel wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

So I was doing some reading and I came across this curse. It's a cool one, to be sure, but it opened up some very interesting questions for me.

The main one deals with the phrasing of this sentence: ...and you must attempt saving throws to resist all spells cast by anyone other than yourself, even those cast by allies...

The wording seems (at least to me) that the Oracle must make saving throws for all spells, from any source--both enemies and allies.

So the questions are:

1. Does this mean that the Oracle MUST make a saving throw against all spells, including harmful ones that don't normally allow a saving throw?

2. Is that what the Devs intended?

3. Does this revelation apply to Spell-Like Abilities?

1. Short answer: No.

The Reclusive Curse means that you can't not save if a save is possible; for example, if there's a spell that has "Will negates (harmless)", you have to save. If the spell doesn't allow a save but some rider effect (such as certain metamagic) does, you have to save against the rider effect.
It doesn't give you a save where the save doesn't exist. There are effects that can DO that; but this curse is not one of them. Oh, and if you have this curse and such an effect, then you have to use that effect to save. (:

2. Easy answer: not applicable.

3. Yes, because spell-like abilities behave as spells for most purposes. They can't counter-spell, and aren't considered spells for CERTAIN purposes (eg, having a spell on your spell list or spells-known repertoire, character-option requisites such as casting a certain spell or spell level, or being compatible with metamagic feats.)
Since Reclusive Curse cares about whether spell effect can be saved against, spell-like abilities certainly count as spells for that.

[Fentomy]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Even if the oracle has to attempt a saving throw vs a spell that does not allow a saving throw does not mean that the saving throw actually does anything. If the spell in question does not allow a saving throw than making the save is meaningless and does nothing. So RAW an oracle with the Reclusive curse would have to attempt a saving throw vs all spells. If the spell allows a saving throw than if the oracle makes the save he takes whatever affect the save gives, if the save does not allow a saving throw making the save does not do anything.

I hadn’t thought about it like that but I suppose you’re right. It doesn’t say that it negates the effects of the spell, just that you have to make a save.

From Saving Throw Rules:

Generally, when you are subject to an unusual or magical attack, you get a saving throw to avoid or reduce the effect. Like an attack roll, a saving throw is a d20 roll plus a bonus based on your class and level (see Classes), and an associated ability score.

The Definition of the saving throw rules could be grounds for an argument to that, but that would be arguing for a very specific (and broken) piece of RAI writing.