Hi All.
I have been doing a bit of reading up about this in several posts but would appreciate some feedback on this build.
Basically want to have an Unchained Monk who will eventually wield a Katana as his Primary Weapon and I want to benefit from all the Monk Abilities being delivered through the Katana including but not limited to Flurry and the Progressive Unarmed Strike Damage.
My Monk is totally Dex based.
My GM has allowed any PF content and I'm utilising Path of War.
Level Progression
1 UM1 Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Combat Reflexes (Bonus Feat)
2 CruClr1 Exotic Wpn Proficiency (Katana), Weapon Focus (Katana)
3 UM2 Crusaders Flurry (Katana), Dodge (Bonus Feat)
4 UM3 Wisdom +1
5 UM4 Mobility, Empty Body (Ki Power)
6 UM5 Flying Kick (Style Strike)
7 UM6 Ascetic Style (Katana), Improved Trip (Bonus Feat), Elemental Fury (Ki Power)
8 UM7 Wisdom +1
9 UM8 Ascetic Form (Katana), Abundant Step (Ki Power)
10 UM9 Defensive Spin (Style Strike)
11 UM10 Greater Trip, Improved Critical (Katana)(Bonus), Qinggong Ki Power (Restoration)
12 UM11 Wisdom +1
13 UM12 Jabbing Style, Qinggong Ki Power (Step Up and Strike)
14 UM13 Spin Kick (Style Strike)
15 UM14 Jabbing Dancer, Medusa's Wrath (Bonus), Qinggong Ki Power (Ki Shout)
16 UM15 Wisdom +1, Throat Crush (Style Strike)
17 UM16 Feat(?), Quivering Palm (Ki Power)
18 UM17 Rabbit Punch (Style Strike)
19 UM18 Feat(?), Snatch Arrows (Bonus Feat), Elemental Burst (Ki Power)
20 UM19 Wisdom +1
21 UM20 Feat(?), Ki Power(?)
Points in relation to my selections
* The Level Dip into Crusader Cleric was to gain the two bonus feats relating to the Katana and tick off pre-requisites. Also a little extra Healing can't hurt right.
* I listed Exotic Weapon Prof (Katana) as I assume that a Cleric's favoured weapon means Exotic for Katana and not Martial.
* Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility to use Dex for Attack and Damage rolls
* Crusader's Flurry to make the Katana a Monk Weapon.
* Ascetic Style at 5th Level says you can use any Monk Weapon. I'm taking this feat as a Level 6 Unchained Monk.
* I believe I still need Crusader's Flurry even when taking Ascetic Form because Ascetic Style is it's prerequisite and the previous point applies?
* I don't believe I need Ascetic Strike as my Progressive Unarmed Damage applies with Ascetic Style and this feat only applies to Non Unchained Monks?
A few questions in relation to Derklord's post about the "Unchained Monk wielding a katana with the Versatile Design weapon modification plus Weapon Adept, Ascetic Style and Ascetic Form"
* Is a Katana with the Versatile Design (Monk) attribute considered a Monk Weapon and as such I won't need Crusader's Flurry or a Weapon Proficiency in Katana?
* The Weapon Adept(Versatile Design) feat treats these weapons as they were Katana and therefore Weapon Focus (Katana) still applies?
* That with a Versatile Katana (Monk) and Weapon Adept (Versatile Design), I don't need to level dip into Crusader Cleric but I still need to take Weapon Focus (Katana) for Ascetic Style?
I must admit I find the whole thing so very confusing, hence the reason I'm reaching out to you :)
Kind Regards
George
Sorry, forgot to mention that I will be purchasing Effortless Lace for the said Katana to make it Light and Finessable so that Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility apply.
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Is a Katana with the Versatile Design (Monk) attribute considered a Monk Weapon and as such I won't need Crusader's Flurry or a Weapon Proficiency in Katana?
No, a monk weapon is a weapon with the monk special property. Versatile Design only changes weapon groups, and thus only interacts with abilities or feats that explicitly mention weapon groups. No Monk abilities do that.
Versatile Design (Monk) does, however, qualify the weapon for Ascetic Style (because it checks for weapon group and not the special ability), and in turn Ascetic Form allows the weapon to be used "with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike", which includes Flurry of Blows, the bonus ki attack, and Style Strikes (because the feat explicitly mentions them it's generally agreed to override the body part requirement).
* Crusader's Flurry to make the Katana a Monk Weapon.
* Ascetic Style at 5th Level says you can use any Monk Weapon.
Note that the special section of Ascetic Style (which does indeed check for monk weapon, i.e. the property, and not the weapon group) only works for the feat itself and not the followup feats.
If you want to "benefit from all the Monk Abilities", Crusader's Flurry doesn't help you, because unMonks can't use the bonus ki attack, or style strikes, with a weapon.
The Weapon Adept(Versatile Design) feat treats these weapons as they were Katana and therefore Weapon Focus (Katana) still applies?
It's a bit complicated, because the duel proficiency weapons have a really unclear interaction with the increase in proficiency a modification imposes. It could be rules in three different ways, from a katana not working at all without either Weapon Adept or Modified Weapon Proficiency, to fully working even without either feat, but the by far most sensible interpretation is that you can wield the katana two-handed without either of those two feats (if you have EWP), but need one of them to wield it one-handed.
Effortless Lace works fine either way.
I listed Exotic Weapon Prof (Katana) as I assume that a Cleric's favoured weapon means Exotic for Katana and not Martial.
Correct as per this FAQ.
I don't believe I need Ascetic Strike as my Progressive Unarmed Damage applies with Ascetic Style
Correct, and there's actually official confirmation on that.
● Stunning Fist
● Ki Pool's DR penetration
● The scaling damage (works like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon, i.e. you chose either one)
● Dealing full strength on off-hand attacks (almost never relevant).
Other things that now work with the weapon:
● Feats that enhance US, e.g. Possessed Hand
● Feats that have IUS as a prereq, e.g. Hex Strike
● Traits that enhance US, e.g. Bullied
● Spells that enhance US, e.g. Magic Fang
● Items that enhance US, e.g. Amulet of Mighty Fists (multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack, but other magic weapon abilities can be stacked with them)
Monk class features that do not work with Ascetic Style:
●The extra attack from Ki Pool
● Style Strikes
● Ki Blocker, One Touch, and Quivering Palm
● Flurry of Blows (relevant for tri-point double-edged sword, urumi, and the versatile design modification).
Thing I'm not sure about:
● The ability to deal nonlethal damage without penalty (on one hand, that basically comes from the general rules for US, but on the other hand, it explicitly mentioned in the Unarmed Strike class feature)
● Weapon Finesse
● Effects that only apply to natural attacks - the "is treated as (...) a natural weapon [blah]" line does make US better, but only indirectly.
Is a Katana with the Versatile Design (Monk) attribute considered a Monk Weapon and as such I won't need Crusader's Flurry or a Weapon Proficiency in Katana?No, a monk weapon is a weapon with the monk special property. Versatile Design only changes weapon groups, and thus only interacts with abilities or feats that explicitly mention weapon groups. No Monk abilities do that.
Versatile Design (Monk) does, however, qualify the weapon for Ascetic Style (because it checks for weapon group and not the special ability), and in turn Ascetic Form allows the weapon to be used "with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike", which includes Flurry of Blows, the bonus ki attack, and Style Strikes (because the feat explicitly mentions them it's generally agreed to override the body part requirement).
* Crusader's Flurry to make the Katana a Monk Weapon.
* Ascetic Style at 5th Level says you can use any Monk Weapon.Note that the special section of Ascetic Style (which does indeed check for monk weapon, i.e. the property, and not the weapon group) only works for the feat itself and not the followup feats.
If you want to "benefit from all the Monk Abilities", Crusader's Flurry doesn't help you, because unMonks can't use the bonus ki attack, or style strikes, with a weapon.
The Weapon Adept(Versatile Design) feat treats these weapons as they were Katana and therefore Weapon Focus (Katana) still applies?It's a bit complicated, because the duel proficiency weapons have a really unclear interaction with the increase in proficiency a modification imposes. It could be rules in three different ways, from a katana not working at all without either Weapon Adept or Modified Weapon Proficiency, to fully working even without either feat, but the by far most sensible interpretation is that you can wield the katana two-handed without either of those two feats (if...
Hey Derklord.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and respond.
I spoke at length with my GM and he decided in the interest of not over complicating things to just House Rule that the Katana was a Monk Weapon. This essentially rules out the need to Level Dip into Cleric, having to create a Versatile Weapon and having to take take the Weapons Adept Feat. Do I need Ascetic Form now?
So with relation to using the following Scenerio
* Using a Katana (now considered a Monk Weapon thanks to the GM)
Have Effortless Lace on the Katana to make the Katana Light and Finessable
* Having Improved Critical (Katana) - increasing the Threat Range to 15-20
* Having Ascetic Style
How do I apply the mechanics of using all the feats above. Could I say use the Improved Critical of the Katana on the attack roll but apply the Scaling Damage of my Unarmed Strikes to the Damage Roll?
Thanks
George
Do I need Ascetic Form now?
Like it says in the spoiler in my last post, yes, you do. Ascetic Style only spplies "effects that augment US" to the weapon (plus feats), in layman's terms, passive effects (like the scaling unarmed damage). Active class features are not covered, and for those you need Ascetic Form. In practise, since you can already flurry with the weapon, there are two relevant abilities that unMonk has that don't work with a weapon: First, the bonus attack gained from spending am ki point - the cMonk version works with all weapons, but unMonk changed it to class feature to only grant an unarmed attack. Second, Style Strikes only work with unarmed strikes.
Pure RAW, Ascetic Form does not override the body part requirement of Style Strikes, but it is generally accepted that it does in effect. The reason for that is that the feat explicitly mentions that Style Strikes work with the weapon, and back when it was printed, every single Style Strike in the game required a specific body part, so in order for the feat to do what it says (at that time at least), it needs to allow the user to ignore the body part limitation.
How do I apply the mechanics of using all the feats above. Could I say use the Improved Critical of the Katana on the attack roll but apply the Scaling Damage of my Unarmed Strikes to the Damage Roll?
Yes. Using the unarmed damage via Ascetic Style is almost exactly like using a Warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage - when you attack, you decide which damage you use. It only changes what value is used for the weapon's base damage, and nothing else. Attack roll, damage type, etc. are not affected.
You don't really use Improved Critical though, it passively applies (unlike Ascetic Style which say "you can apply", making it an option). When you have the feat, when you attack with the respective weapon, the feat is active, pretty much no matter what else happens surrounding that attack.