One of my players made a warpriest Human Cleric lvl 1 with Deadly Simplicity (simple favourite weapon) + Syncretism (martial favourite weapon). He picked a Bastard Sword and increased the damage dice by 1 step. I thought this had to be wrong. But after reading through it, asking in Discord and talking with my player I think he's right and it's RAW.
It all comes down to the definition of "Prerequisite" and its wording. I think that by clarifying this definition, this specific cleric issue will be solved too. I added it just as an example, for context. The actual question comes now.
(Core Rule Book, pg. 18)
Prerequisites: Any minimum ability scores, feats, proficiency
ranks, or other prerequisites you must have before you can
access this rule element are listed here. Feats also have a level
prerequisite, which appears above.
We're not native English speakers, so maybe there's a misunderstanding in there. But from what I gather, the word "Access" refers to getting the feat or ability. Not about using it. "Requirement" on the other hand specifies that it's about using it. So if you get a feat somehow (Syncretism) you could use it regardless if you satisfy the prerequisite conditions or not.
The way I understand it personally is that Prerequisite is about getting the feat AND using it afterwards. Both. But that would be RAI. From the prerequisite's definition text, I can't give this to my player and say it's RAW. There's room for interpretation there.
I'd appreciate if a Paizo dev could confirm both the intent behind the term "Prerequisite" and add some clarification on Syncretism. Having a Bastard Sword with a d10 weapon damage die is an impactful change and I want to be sure it's intended before allowing it.
Thanks.
Deadly Simplicity only applies towards simple weapons as far as I know. The intent is to make simple weapons not suck to use, not to provide a power boost to martial weapons.
Intent is you're using the same simple weapon that qualifies you for the feat.
I think the problem here is not with the prerequisites or with Syncretism, but with the way Deadly Simplicity is worded: "When you are wielding your deity’s favored weapon, increase the damage die size of that weapon".
I think this is meant as following, but due to word count they didn't future-proof this enough:
"When you are wielding your deity’s favored weapon [that is simple, by virtue of the prerequisites], increase the damage die size of that weapon".
I think the RAW answer here is that this works as your player says, but I could very well understand if you're uncomfortable with this interaction and would ask him to play it differently.
Letting these two feats work in conjunction like this is basically the only way for their to be a mechanical benefit to taking Syncretism as a warpriest.
I say that because the character could have just chosen a deity with a martial favored weapon and spent their feat on some other useful thing so that's the comparison point for whether or not picking a diety with a simple favored weapon and the syncretism feat for a martial favored weapon is "doing enough."
And since the general rules for increased damage die size stops at d12, it's not a degree of damage that is going to get out of hand.
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thenobledrake wrote: Letting these two feats work in conjunction like this is basically the only way for their to be a mechanical benefit to taking Syncretism as a warpriest. Bow + melee weapon or 2-weapon Warpriest, there are good reasons to take it.
Now, melee Warpriests are such in a bad state I would certainly don't care as a DM.
SuperBidi wrote: Bow + melee weapon or 2-weapon Warpriest, there are good reasons to take it. I wasn't saying there weren't other reasons to take it than for it to boost the damage of a weapon that normally wouldn't get boosted.
I was saying these other options aren't actually worth deity & feat choice.
You could just pick the deity that favors the bow and grab a different feat and in most cases be better off or at least on-par, or you could just use 2 of the same weapon as a 2-weapon warpriest because that's the same "balance" even though you're likely utilizing less varied traits.
thenobledrake wrote: SuperBidi wrote: Bow + melee weapon or 2-weapon Warpriest, there are good reasons to take it. I wasn't saying there weren't other reasons to take it than for it to boost the damage of a weapon that normally wouldn't get boosted.
I was saying these other options aren't actually worth deity & feat choice.
You could just pick the deity that favors the bow and grab a different feat and in most cases be better off or at least on-par, or you could just use 2 of the same weapon as a 2-weapon warpriest because that's the same "balance" even though you're likely utilizing less varied traits. Well, there are other options. Are they worth it is a personal choice, as you won't find any feat that does roughly the same thing.
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So this is how I read it, the Prerequisites for Deadly Simplicity reads as follows
Prerequisites deity with a simple favored weapon, trained with your deity’s favored weapon
So the deity they worship has to have favored weapon that is simple.
But Syncretism states they can take a second deity and apply the feats from the first favorite weapon to the second favorite weapon. It even calls out Deadly Simplicity in the text....
. If you are a warpriest, you gain the favored weapon of that deity as a second favored weapon, and it gains the benefits of feats and abilities you have that affect your deity’s favored weapon, such as Deadly Simplicity.
Seems to make sense to me...
I've been looking over both feats, and I think the intent of Deadly Simplicity is that it only applies to simple favored weapons. However, while the prerequisite requires you to worship a deity with a simple favored weapon in order to take the feat, the text of the feat itself does not specify that it only applies to simple weapons, just to favorite weapons. Since that is the case, the effects of Deadly Simplicity can apply to any favored weapon gained through Syncretism, allowing an advanced or martial favored weapon to have its die size increased by one step. This works as written. Given that Warpriests are widely considered to be sub-par, it isn't necessarily a bad thing.
That being said, if this is something that bothers you, I would suggest simply house-ruling the following line to the end of Deadly Simplicity: "The effects of this feat only apply to simple favored weapons."
That would prevent advanced or martial weapons from having their die size increased, while still allowing Syncretism to apply Deadly Simplicity to other deities' simple favored weapons. It's possible that a similar line could be added in a future wave of errata, as well, depending on how much it gets used (abused?) in PFS.
Now, I know for me as a GM, I would like the player to adhere to the first line of Syncretism, and explain to me what the overlap they see between the two deities is. That way I can avoid combinations that dont' make sense for the sake of a power boost. Norgorber and Pharasma may both allow Neutral worshipers, but I don't think there's a ton of overlap between their teachings.
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