Downtime Building / Organization Earnings

[Faolán Maiali the Azure Abjurer]

So, I'm going to be playing an Alchemist in an upcoming game who plans to eventually get his own shop, so I was looking at the Downtime rules and such, and I noticed this rule that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around:

"If you have multiple buildings or organizations in a settlement and they can generate the same kind of capital, you don't have to roll for them separately--you may add all their capital modifiers together and attempt one check for that kind of capital. If you spend a downtime day earning capital on your own, you may add your building and organization bonuses to your roll instead of rolling separately for yourself and each of your businesses or organizations."

Why would anyone make just one check instead of rolling for them separately, when you'd end up earning more with separate checks? If you were to take 10, you'd lose 10 points of check result for each building's/organization's bonuses merged into just one check.

Example: Suppose my alchemist has a +16 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks at level 4, so by taking 10, he can earn 2.6 gp/day practicing his trade without a building.

If I have the Alchemist building listed on pg 107, which has the following rooms (and Earnings entry):
Alchemy Lab (gp, Goods, or Magic +10)
Bedroom (gp or Influence +3)
Garden (gp or Goods +8)
Kitchen (gp or Goods +4)
Lavatory (none)
Sitting Room (Influence +4)
Storage (gp +2)
Storefront (capital +5, of a type the building already generates)

And I decide to have my shop generate GP with skilled work, then the building itself would have a +32 bonus from all the rooms. If I were to add that bonus to my own, my check result would be 58, earning 5.8 gp/day.

If I then had a team of Craftspeople working in the shop, which grants gp, Goods, or Labor +4, the total bonus by combining the bonuses would be +52, earning 6.2 gp/day.

However, if I made separate checks, I'd have results of 26, 42, and 14, earning 8.2 gp/day instead. And if I further divided the building's bonus to generate other types of capital with additional checks, I could earn even more.

Is there something I'm missing here?

[Meirril]

Nope. You understand what is going on. The Downtime rules are very badly written. Talk to your GM about if he even wants to use the downtime rules. Honestly, they are poorly made.

[Mark Hoover 330]

The only reason they made that "add everything up in one check" rule is only because it makes things easy and convenient. Some players, like yourself, don't mind doing the work to maximize profit during Downtime. Others just want a single, easy number to get to.

Yes, the Downtime rules are challenging. Your understanding of them however is spot on. If you want to make multiple checks you certainly can and this will net you a couple more gold. Consider though: at level 4, when you are facing CR 4 or bigger threats, is there a need to track an extra mundane dagger's worth of gold more?

Typically my own players will do this (they are APL 5 currently): during Downtime they determine what Capital besides GP they want their business/organization to make. Then they look at what they're going to need that Capital for - new rooms/teams, paying off a debt, influencing a roll, etc. Figuring how much Capital gets them what they want and how much of their bonuses to use to get there by taking 10, they remove that part from the equation and just turn the rest into one big GP profits earning.

For example the monk has a brothel and often uses Influence to make his Diplomacy checks in the area easier. He recently decided he wanted to use 2 Influence to influence a merchant to change her attitude and give favorable terms to the party on caravan stuff for an upcoming adventure. The business typically, if used in one big check plus his Profession skill, is a high enough bonus to earn 3 Influence plus a tiny amount of profit. Instead he added one room and his team with his own bonuses for 2 Influence, then took the remaining +13, took 10, and got 2 GP, 3 SP out of the deal, instead of tipping over the top into 3 Influence, 1.5 GP.

Whatever is important to you and delivers the most fun, go with that.

[Meirril]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Yes, the Downtime rules are challenging. Your understanding of them however is spot on. If you want to make multiple checks you certainly can and this will net you a couple more gold. Consider though: at level 4, when you are facing CR 4 or bigger threats, is there a need to track an extra mundane dagger's worth of gold more?

The gold isn't really a problem. It is the generation of resources that is a problem. Most of the players that are hungry for gold, the reason for that is they want to produce magic items. Magic Resources can be directly used to purchase magic items and services in a community for what amounts to the same cost as crafting magic items. If you go through the trouble of actually using magic resources to craft magic items, you actually make magic items with an investment of 1/4 of their market price (half the creation cost), assuming you earn all of the magic resources. Or that you earn good or labor and convert those to magic resources.

If you have +5 on a building that generates gold, magic and goods if you assign +1 to magic and goods, then +3 to gold you generate the opportunity to purchase 1 magic, 1 goods and 13 silver each day. Hiring individual magic using employees is more efficient than having a bunch of them team up. Gold generation is chump change, compared to what you can spend Magic Resources and Goods on. Being able to double your purchasing power is the real reward the downtime system offers...and its incredibly easy to abuse.

[Mark Hoover 330]

First off, I agree that the generation of Goods or Magic Capital is easy to abuse in the Downtime system, as is using these Capital types during Downtime. That being said, the PC still has to pay for said Capital. They also need to have Rooms or Teams that generate these Capital types.

Goods come from a lot of sources but from what I can tell there are about 10 sources between Rooms and Teams for Magic Capital. Any ONE of these, the player could make multiples of, then take 10 on the Capital generation from each Room/Team and generate mass amounts of Magic capital, 1 Capital/Room or Team, so long as they've got the 50 GP per Magic Capital to pay for it.

Enter: the GM

Abusing any rule that is capable of being abused in PF is only as pervasive as the GM that allows it. If your player wants to build a Magical Repository, hire 4 Apprentices, and also wants to upgrade their Greenhouse to a Mystic Greenhouse, as a GM you have to A. notice the opportunity for potential abuses of the Downtime rules here, B. choose to put a stop to this abuse before it starts, or C. allow the abuse but deal with the inevitable glut of resources the characters will have as a result at a later time.

I personally have squashed such abuses in multiple ways, in my own games:

1. Strictly enforcing Spending Limits - my players complain all the time that our games mainly take place in Small Towns or smaller settlements but too bad

2. Call out that there are not enough apprentice wizards, acolytes and mages and priests just sitting around, waiting to be hired as the PCs' Teams

3. Generate pushback, legal and otherwise, by the settlement's ruler(s) or influencer(s) against the PCs generating multiples of the same Room or certain Rooms such as Crypts, Ceremonial Rooms, etc.

Remember that this is a mechanical thing, these collections of Rooms and Teams grouped together into Businesses and Organizations, but they're still businesses and organizations. By that I mean, part of their existence is still rooted in the commerce and culture of the settlement. If the GM's setting or that of the AP they're running doesn't support a 4th level wizard/tycoon that owns an Academy, Alchemist's Shop and an Arena, all of which are staffed with multiple Apprentices and Mages (in the case of the Alchemist's Shop, the "Mage" is actually an Alchemist), then that player shouldn't be allowed to create those Businesses or Organizations.

There's also the fact that Downtime is separated out by phases and days, with consequences by week and if the PC is absent. GMs need to keep track of these and stay attentive to using these built-in checks to abuses. If you give your players weeks of unfettered Downtime in their home settlement, don't be surprised if they use this time to craft 4 super-cheap Belts or Circlets with all the Magic Capital they're pumping out. Instead GMs need to be checking for Events, tracking the time the PCs are taking, and even making sure that each PC's actions by phase are correct.

Last but not least, and I say this with all respect to players everywhere but, Downtime is a privilege, not a right. There are MANY AP's and games whose pacing and setting are not conducive to creating and managing elaborate Businesses and Organizations. If the GM notes abuses but has already allowed you to make such Businesses and/or Organizations, they should speak with you about said abuses and try to reach a compromise. If players at this point still insist on abusing things and the GM has already spoken to them/warned them that this abuse isn't ok, at that point the GM is perfectly within their right to remove the players' opportunities to abuse.

This might mean the GM only picks events that hinder the Capital generation. Maybe rival NPCs plot against the PC's Business/Organization and harass or attack the PC's holdings. Monster attacks, natural disasters, plagues or even just the removal of the opportunity for Downtime days are all within the GM's purview at this point.

Yes, we're in the Rules section and the Rules of the Downtime system are about as clear as mud, but there are some few checks and balances against abuse. At the end of the day however these rules are a contract between player and GM on having fun with the game. If there are abuses, they've been addressed by both sides and said abuses continue, then at least one party in that contract is no longer having fun and that's just not ok.