Hi everyone,
I haven't found anything preventing Inspire Courage to improve Persistent Damage. Because Persistent Damage is damage it should be affected by status bonuses to damage... So Inspire Courage seems to work at first read.
Of course, on application and not at every round as after application it's a condition.
Yes, but only if the primary damage was persistent. It wouldn't increase the persistent damage from a Produce Flame crit, but it would from an Acid Flask.
edit: I misread Acid Flask.
What I intended was that if an attack said "Deal 2D6 Persistent Damage". That would be the base damage. That would be enhanced and would become "Deal 2D6+1 Persistent Damage". With "Deal 1D6 Slashing Damage + 2D6 Persistent Damage", the Persistent Damage is additional damage and would not be enhanced. It would become "Deal 1D6+1 Slashing Damage + 2D6 Persistent Damage"
Yes, but only if the primary damage was persistent. It wouldn't increase the persistent damage from a Produce Flame crit, but it would from an Acid Flask.
Where do you find this notion of primary damage? Because acid flask also deals Splash Damage.
Hi everyone, I haven't found anything preventing Inspire Courage to improve Persistent Damage. Because Persistent Damage is damage it should be affected by status bonuses to damage... So Inspire Courage seems to work at first read. Of course, on application and not at every round as after application it's a condition.
What do you mean on application? As far as I can see PD is never applied immediately but only once it is the end of the recipients turn.
Instead of taking persistent damage immediately, you take it at the end of each of your turns as long as you have the condition, rolling any damage dice anew each time.
As such I think PD can never benefit from inspire courage.
Yes, but only if the primary damage was persistent. It wouldn't increase the persistent damage from a Produce Flame crit, but it would from an Acid Flask.Where do you find this notion of primary damage? Because acid flask also deals Splash Damage.
You're right, I misread Acid Flask. The primary (base) damage is just 1 Acid Damage, so Inspire Courage would not apply to that Persistent Damage, as that's additional damage.
Hi everyone, I haven't found anything preventing Inspire Courage to improve Persistent Damage. Because Persistent Damage is damage it should be affected by status bonuses to damage... So Inspire Courage seems to work at first read. Of course, on application and not at every round as after application it's a condition.What do you mean on application? As far as I can see PD is never applied immediately but only once it is the end of the recipients turn.
Instead of taking persistent damage immediately, you take it at the end of each of your turns as long as you have the condition, rolling any damage dice anew each time.As such I think PD can never benefit from inspire courage.
Acid Flask deals 1d6 persistent acid damage (that's Acid Flask text). That's what I call application, when you get the condition. Afterwards, it's just the condition triggering every round.
You're right, I misread Acid Flask. The primary (base) damage is just 1 Acid Damage, so Inspire Courage would not apply to that Persistent Damage, as that's additional damage.Yes, but only if the primary damage was persistent. It wouldn't increase the persistent damage from a Produce Flame crit, but it would from an Acid Flask.Where do you find this notion of primary damage? Because acid flask also deals Splash Damage.
So it increases splash damage against all the creatures around? Sorry, but your (base) damage doesn't seem to solve any issue, mostly because nothing allows to determine what damage has to be increased among all the types of damage a spell/attack does (unless it's stated somewhere).
Hi everyone, I haven't found anything preventing Inspire Courage to improve Persistent Damage. Because Persistent Damage is damage it should be affected by status bonuses to damage... So Inspire Courage seems to work at first read. Of course, on application and not at every round as after application it's a condition.What do you mean on application? As far as I can see PD is never applied immediately but only once it is the end of the recipients turn.
Instead of taking persistent damage immediately, you take it at the end of each of your turns as long as you have the condition, rolling any damage dice anew each time.As such I think PD can never benefit from inspire courage.Acid Flask deals 1d6 persistent acid damage (that's Acid Flask text). That's what I call application, when you get the condition. Afterwards, it's just the condition triggering every round.
So it increases splash damage against all the creatures around? Sorry, but your (base) damage doesn't seem to solve any issue, mostly because nothing allows to determine what damage has to be increased among all the types of damage a spell/attack does (unless it's stated somewhere).You're right, I misread Acid Flask. The primary (base) damage is just 1 Acid Damage, so Inspire Courage would not apply to that Persistent Damage, as that's additional damage.Yes, but only if the primary damage was persistent. It wouldn't increase the persistent damage from a Produce Flame crit, but it would from an Acid Flask.Where do you find this notion of primary damage? Because acid flask also deals Splash Damage.
So is your interpretation of Inspire Courage that it gives +1 to every instance of damage an attack does? Because that's absurdly more powerful than the ability actually is.
So when I attack with my Sword, you're saying I get +1 to my weapon damage, +1 to my flaming rune, +1 to my frost rune, +1 to my bleeding rune?
No, of course not. I get +1 to my weapon damage.
Skipping Acid Flask, because as Kennethray pointed out, it does Fixed Damage.
Acid Arrow 3D8 Acid Damage + 1D6 Persistent Acid Damage. This would increase to 3D8+1 Acid Damage + 1D6 Persistent Acid Damage.
Spell (and similar effects) damage roll = damage die of the effect + bonuses + penalties
Note it says Damage Die, not Damage Dice. Only the first damage listed is the base damage. You can call it the "Spell Damage Die", compared to a "Weapon Damage Die", if that is easier to understand than base damage, which is just a colloquial term from decades of gaming.
Acid Flask deals 1d6 persistent acid damage (that's Acid Flask text). That's what I call application, when you get the condition. Afterwards, it's just the condition triggering every round.
The thing is, that is not how I think persistent damage works. There are at least two sections in the CRB that state that PD is not applied immediately.
Unlike with normal damage, when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage.
Instead of taking persistent damage immediately, you take it at the end of each of your turns as long as you have the condition, rolling any damage dice anew each time. After you take persistent damage, roll a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage. If you succeed, the condition ends.
So when you are hit by an Acid Flask you will receive 1 direct acid damage and the condition "PD 1d6 acid". However it is not you rolling the damage immediately but the condition rolling the damage once the target has finished its turn.
As such in my opinion PD can not benefit from
...You and all allies in the area gain a +1 status bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls...
So when you are hit by an Acid Flask you will receive 1 direct acid damage and the condition "PD 1d6 acid". However it is not you rolling the damage immediately but the condition rolling the damage once the target has finished its turn.As such in my opinion PD can not benefit from
True. Inspire Courage specify rolls. So I agree with you.
New question (if you allow me): If I have Dangerous Sorcery (that doesn't specify roll) would I have a bonus to both immediate damage and Persistent Damage when I cast Acid Arrow.
So is your interpretation of Inspire Courage that it gives +1 to every instance of damage an attack does? Because that's absurdly more powerful than the ability actually is.
I don't have an interpretation, I'm asking for the RAW. Damage instance is clearly a question (and I don't have an answer, as damage instance is not properly defined in the rules).
Another example (a bit less obvious than damage instances), if I cast Searing Light on an Undead with Inspire Courage on, what happens, which damage gets a bonus? Fire and Good, Fire or Good, none?
New question (if you allow me): If I have Dangerous Sorcery (that doesn't specify roll) would I have a bonus to both immediate damage and Persistent Damage when I cast Acid Arrow.
You get the bonus on the initial damage but not on the persistent damage. The spell has a duration of instant. You evoke the acid, it hits (your spell = your damage), then the acid is doing damage on its own. Likewise while you could counteract the spell while it is being cast using dispel magic, you could not dispel the persistent acid damage because the acid is mundane once evoked, not magical of nature.
Another example (a bit less obvious than damage instances), if I cast Searing Light on an Undead with Inspire Courage on, what happens, which damage gets a bonus? Fire and Good, Fire or Good, none?You use the rules on page 451:
Spell (and similar effects) damage roll = damage die of the effect + bonuses + penalties
using Inspire Courage as a one-time bonus to the overall roll.
Another example (a bit less obvious than damage instances), if I cast Searing Light on an Undead with Inspire Courage on, what happens, which damage gets a bonus? Fire and Good, Fire or Good, none?You use the rules on page 451:Spell (and similar effects) damage roll = damage die of the effect + bonuses + penaltiesusing Inspire Courage as a one-time bonus to the overall roll.
Actually, you made a mistake but you allowed me to find the answer.
Because you apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities separately to both the Fire and the Good part, you have to:Calculate the Fire part, roll the dice and add the Inspire Courage bonus as such.
Apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities to the Fire part so a creature immune to Fire is only immune to this part of the damage.
Calculate the Good part, roll the dice and add the Inspire Courage bonus.
Apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities to the Good part so a creature immune to Good is only immune to this part of the damage.
So you apply Inspire Courage bonus to both the Fire and the Good damage. They are 2 different instances of damage and must be treated separately. Like 2 different attacks.
So you apply Inspire Courage bonus to both the Fire and the Good damage. They are 2 different instances of damage and must be treated separately. Like 2 different attacks.
If those are indeed 2 instances of damage I will gladly agree, however I do remember a lot of discussion about instances of damage here on the boards, a topic where the CRB is not doing its best job and I am no expert in either.
For example spells like magic missile will yield different results while under the effect of Inspire Courage. If you do a 3-action cast and shoot one missile at one enemy each Inspire courage will give you a net +3 to damage, however if you shoot all 3 at the same guy you will only get +1. Likewise things like Hunted Shot and Flurry of Blows may also be affected differently if both strikes target the same guy versus attacking different targets.
Another example (a bit less obvious than damage instances), if I cast Searing Light on an Undead with Inspire Courage on, what happens, which damage gets a bonus? Fire and Good, Fire or Good, none?You use the rules on page 451:Spell (and similar effects) damage roll = damage die of the effect + bonuses + penaltiesusing Inspire Courage as a one-time bonus to the overall roll.Actually, you made a mistake but you allowed me to find the answer.
Because you apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities separately to both the Fire and the Good part, you have to:
Calculate the Fire part, roll the dice and add the Inspire Courage bonus as such.
Apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities to the Fire part so a creature immune to Fire is only immune to this part of the damage.
Calculate the Good part, roll the dice and add the Inspire Courage bonus.
Apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities to the Good part so a creature immune to Good is only immune to this part of the damage.So you apply Inspire Courage bonus to both the Fire and the Good damage. They are 2 different instances of damage and must be treated separately. Like 2 different attacks.
I disagree. The Good damage is Additional Damage, just like Damage from a Shocking Rune. Inspire Courage applies to the Spell Damage Die, which is 5D6 Fire Damage.
You wouldn't add your STR bonus to both your Weapon Die and your Shocking Rune Die against something with Weakness to Electricity. Nor would you get to benefit from Inspire Courage Multiple times because you have Property Runes.
They are two instances of Damage for sure, but they are part of a single Spell Damage Roll.
Another example (a bit less obvious than damage instances), if I cast Searing Light on an Undead with Inspire Courage on, what happens, which damage gets a bonus? Fire and Good, Fire or Good, none?You use the rules on page 451:Spell (and similar effects) damage roll = damage die of the effect + bonuses + penaltiesusing Inspire Courage as a one-time bonus to the overall roll.Actually, you made a mistake but you allowed me to find the answer.
Because you apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities separately to both the Fire and the Good part, you have to:
Calculate the Fire part, roll the dice and add the Inspire Courage bonus as such.
Apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities to the Fire part so a creature immune to Fire is only immune to this part of the damage.
Calculate the Good part, roll the dice and add the Inspire Courage bonus.
Apply Resistances, Weaknesses and Immunities to the Good part so a creature immune to Good is only immune to this part of the damage.So you apply Inspire Courage bonus to both the Fire and the Good damage. They are 2 different instances of damage and must be treated separately. Like 2 different attacks.
I disagree. The Good damage is Additional Damage, just like Damage from a Shocking Rune. Inspire Courage applies to the Spell Damage Die, which is 5D6 Fire Damage.
You wouldn't add your STR bonus to both your Weapon Die and your Shocking Rune Die against something with Weakness to Electricity. Nor would you get to benefit from Inspire Courage Multiple times because you have Property Runes.
They are two instances of Damage for sure, but they are part of a single Spell Damage Roll.
Edit: Reading it again and again, it looks like you're right. Additional damage should really have a line in the rules, like damage instance.
Still, one question remains: Does Dangerous Sorcery improves Persistent Damage from Acid Arrow? This one got no proper answer in my opinion (and it's not additional damage in this case :D).
Question: Would it be sensible for Acid Flask with Inspire Courage to do 1 direct acid damage from Inspire + 1 splash + 1d6 persistant?
since it did 0 direct damage before, the damage is just from Inspire.