| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Fearless Aura
Benefit: Your aura of courage expands to a 20-foot-radius emanation. Allies within the aura are immune to fear effects.
Dragonbane Aura
Benefit: When fighting dragons, your aura of courage expands to a 20-foot-radius emanation, and allies in the aura gain a morale bonus on saving throws against dragon breath equal to your aura of courage’s bonus against fear effects.
The question is simple. Immune to dragon breath weapons? To those who may think immune is not a bonus, Paizo doesn't always follow this rule.
Spell Immunity
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells.
So, the precedent exists where immune = infinite bonus.
Heh, I don't think so. The immunity to fear effects is an additional effect granted by the feat, not an adjustment of the original bonus to infinity.
The layering you suggest doesn't quite jive with the presentation of Benefit and Normal entries ascribed to feats. The Benefit replaces the Normal effect in every other case I can think of. I don't see how the +4 bonus is still active. What sense is there to be both immune to something and gain a +4 from the same ability?
Feats
Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
So, if people in my aura are immune to fear and Dragonbane Aura puts the same bonus of my aura to dragon's breath weapons, how are they not immune?
Nothing in the text implies that the adjustment is a bonus--it's a blanket immunity. You still have the +4 bonus to saves, but it's of no use except as a reference for abilities like, well, Dragonbane Aura.
The spell immunity argument is unconvincing to say the least.
How so? It clearly describes a situation where immunity is mechanically an infinite bonus (unbeatable SR).
How so? It clearly describes a situation where immunity is mechanically an infinite bonus (unbeatable SR).
Unbeateable SR isn't the same as an infinite bonus. And the example doesn't claim that.
If you got an infinite bonus to a saving throw, you would fail your saves on every natural 1. If you are immune, you don't.
Unbeateable SR isn't the same as an infinite bonus.
Yes, it is. Even if you have +1Bn bonus (srsly) to penetrate SR, you still couldn't beat it. No matter how much of a bonus you have, you can't beat it. This is by definition infinite.
And the example doesn't claim that.
Yes, it does. Quote: The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells.
If you got an infinite bonus to a saving throw, you would fail your saves on every natural 1. If you are immune, you don't.
Correct. This is why I'm asking. So, I guess a better question might be does a feat replace the thing it changes with its text or does it layer effects? I've worked with the assumption it replaces or changes the base ability in specific ways. The feat Fearless Aura changes the benefit from a bonus to outright immunity. There is no more bonus to be had for a character who takes Fearless Aura. Both feats come from the same source book. Why not a single sentence on how they interact?
Well see I think the big mistake is that it is not the Aura of Courage granting immunity. The bonus against fear from Aura of Courage is +4. Fearless Aura grants immunity. As a result, Dragonbane aura gives a +4 against dragons' breath effects whether you have Fearless aura or not
At least that is how I read it and would rule it in a game.
I appreciate that's how you would rule in your games, but that's not what this is about.
The feat says those within your Aura of Courage are immune to fear. How is it not the aura granting immunity? The feat changes how the aura works. Would you say the aura is not 20 ft. in radius but the feat itself creating a new aura?
If there is this layering effect, what I'm hearing is that you still have an aura with a 10ft. radius granting a +4 as well as a 20ft aura granting immunity. If feats layer like this (that both what they do exists and what they change also still exists simultaneously), I think I could find weird rules interpretations without much work.
Fearless Aura
Benefit: Your aura of courage expands to a 20-foot-radius emanation. Allies within the aura are immune to fear effects.Dragonbane Aura
Benefit: When fighting dragons, your aura of courage expands to a 20-foot-radius emanation, and allies in the aura gain a morale bonus on saving throws against dragon breath equal to your aura of courage’s bonus against fear effects.The question is simple. Immune to dragon breath weapons? To those who may think immune is not a bonus, Paizo doesn't always follow this rule.
Spell Immunity
The warded creature is immune to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels you have. The spells must be of 4th level or lower. The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells.So, the precedent exists where immune = infinite bonus.
Spell Immunity doesn't count, considering it works against the effects of spells; not spell-like or supernatural abilities. You can also state that the effects of Spell Immunity doesn't work the same as any other sort of immunity, since creatures immune to Fire are immune to all forms of Fire, whereas creatures immune to spells via this spell have spelled out (and not spelled out) exceptions to the immunity, which can be constituted as limited.
Although a good question, it's important to note that the Spell Immunity example simply states that the creature's spell resistance is effectively unbeatable regarding those that fall under its threshold. It makes no mention of there being any bonus granted to the creature. It simply disregards spells that are 4th level or lower, up to 1 spell per 4 caster levels you possess.
The same concept applies to the Fearless Aura; it says that creatures are immune to fear effects. It makes no mention that it increases the bonuses granted by the original Aura of Courage, the bonus that is used for the Dragonbane Aura, therefore the Aura of Courage's original bonus is still used, not this +infinity, which I have no idea where you get that interpretation from.
For the OP, very simple question: Does Dragonbane Aura alone grant the Paladin immunity to breath weapons? After all, his normal Aura of Courage grants him immunity to fear.
I hope the answer is clearly "No".
Immunity is not infinite. Unbeatable SR (which still isn't infinite) simply describes the effects - meaning if the spell doesn't allow for SR, it does nothing.
The thing with Spell Immunity is that it insinuates that spells that aren't affected by SR can't be selected to make the caster immune to them as it grants an unbeatable SR check. So, if a spell isn't subject to SR, it bypasses that mechanic entirely. If the spell resistance mechanic wasn't important it wouldn't be in the spell description.
I don't see why the infinity thing is difficult to comprehend. I don't care if you're a 20th level wizard with a +10 vs SR so you're rolling 31+. If someone has Spell Immunity on them and you're casting a 4th level spell at them they've made themselves immune to nothing happens. Likewise, if you had +1000 vs SR somehow, you still couldn't beat it. This is effectively an infinite bonus.
But, what you're saying is that even though a feat does what it says, any underlying effects or conditions that were there previously are still in effect and not replaced by what the feat says?
Putting that to the test brings up a question, then.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
If you make attacks normally, and feats layer effects rather than replace, the -4 penalty is still in place. This is absurd, yes?
This is why my premise on feats is their benefit REPLACES what it talks about rather than layering effects. Feats basically say "instead of this Normal condition, this Benefit section is now how things work."
The EWP example uses similarly styled wording to how things works. Instead of saying the -4 bonus goes away, it just refers to "normally." Well, normally you're not proficient with a weapon until you're granted proficiency somehow. Yet, still taking negs on attacks with a weapon you have EWP with is simply not how it works. Likewise, instead of Dragonsbane Aura specifying immunity, it refers to the Aura of Courage bonus, which can be modified by Fearless Aura.
The same style of wording and logic applies to Fearless Aura is that your aura is now granting immunity instead of a bonus. EWP does not explicitly take away the -4 bonus. Neither does FA explicitly state the bonus goes away. They both just say "you now do this" but we're supposed to use one style of reading feats for EWP and another for FA? That's what doesn't make sense to me.
I'm sure I could find other examples.
Edited for clarity.
I don't see why the infinity thing is difficult to comprehend.
We comprehend it. We just don't agree that it's a valid argument. Spell immunity grants "effectively unbeatable SR"; this is a short summary that describes the spell's overall effect. At best, this applies only for that spell. It says nothing about any other kind of spell, effect, or ability.
There is no bonus so therefore there is no infinite bonus. <---That is why.
The infinite bonus is irrelevant to my question. It was merely an example of how Paizo's wording can be use to mean something without stating it explicitly. Their wording of an unbeatable SR is another way of saying "it's so high you can't beat it." If this wasn't the case, the spell would simply say the casting fails as is used in several other places. To bring the SR mechanic into it at all by that mechanic's nature involves a numeric bonus. Just because the number of bonus isn't stated doesn't mean one isn't applied.
The infinite bonus is irrelevant to my question. It was merely an example of how Paizo's wording can be use to mean something without stating it explicitly. Their wording of an unbeatable SR is another way of saying "it's so high you can't beat it." If this wasn't the case, the spell would say simply say the casting fails as is used in several other places. To bring the SR mechanic into it at all by that mechanic's nature involves a numeric bonus. Just because the number of bonus isn't stated doesn't mean one isn't applied.
No, the SR mechanic is brought into it because spell immunity only protects against spells with "SR: yes".
No, the SR mechanic is brought into it because spell immunity only protects against spells with "SR: yes".
Ugh.
Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature's spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature.
SR is number vs number. SR vs your CL check. An unbeatable SR is by its nature a result higher than you can achieve. This is a numeric bonus. The exact amount of the bonus is simply not stated.
Back to the thread topic, please.
I know what it is. The point is you're trying to use the spell immunity spell as some kind of proof for other situations, while the reality is that the spell in question is worded the way it is because it isn't, actually, blanket immunity to spells. You're the one who keeps bringing that spell's wording up, so it kind of feels odd when you're the one who says "back to the topic"..
Anyway.. on the topic, there are only really two possible readings:
(a) There's no bonus at all, since the immunity removes the +4 bonus.
(b) There's still a +4 bonus.
I think reading "(c) Immunity to breath weapons" is quite a stretch, and would go with (b) in my games.
I pointed it out because when you break it down to how it actually works mechanically you get an interesting situation insofar as to what must happen for the effect to come to pass. It was an aside. It was never meant to be the main point of debate. Hence, getting back to the topic.
The intent of the Dragonsbane Aura is clear. Normally, yes, you get the +4 to saves against breath weapons. However, it doesn't take into consideration how it behaves if you have Fearless Aura. It doesn't make sense to change how you handle the interpretation of these two feat apart from the general application of feats just because you have a combination that seems wonky. Such things usually require an FAQ. That's why I posted.
If the wording of spell immunity wasn't meant to be the point of debate, why did you pose an argument that hinges completely on that point?
Nothing in Fearless Aura says that your aura of courage now has an infinite bonus. The only argument you've offered that this is the case is the wording of spell immunity, and that argument does not prove the case.
Seems a pretty easy way to get an epic quality level ability.
Personally I'd go with
Dragonbane Aura
Those within your dragonbane aura gain the same protection that you do.
Prerequisites: Aura of courage class feature, caster level 8th.
Benefit: When fighting dragons, your aura of courage expands to a 20-foot-radius emanation, and allies in the aura gain a morale bonus on saving throws against dragon breath equal to your aura of courage’s bonus against fear effects.
Normal: The aura of courage is a 10-foot-radius emanation, and grants a +4 morale bonus on fear effects.
As in, "allies now also get +4 morale bonus vs dragon breath weapons", and the rules didn't anticipate the stack with Fearless aura.
If the wording of spell immunity wasn't meant to be the point of debate, why did you pose an argument that hinges completely on that point?
Nothing in Fearless Aura says that your aura of courage now has an infinite bonus. The only argument you've offered that this is the case is the wording of spell immunity, and that argument does not prove the case.
You need to recheck my posts. I provided another example with Exotic Weapon Proficiency. There are other feats as well with wonky effects if I apply them as I'm told to do in this thread.
For the OP, very simple question: Does Dragonbane Aura alone grant the Paladin immunity to breath weapons? After all, his normal Aura of Courage grants him immunity to fear.
I guess not :)
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.If you make attacks normally, and feats layer effects rather than replace, the -4 penalty is still in place. This is absurd, yes?
Actually, no - it's not absurd. A character with Exotic Weapon Proficiency is proficient with the weapon, and thus does not take that penalty.
1. Immunity to fear is not an infinite bonus on saves against fear. This would leave you susceptible to fear effects on a successful save (e.g. fear spell) or that do not allow a save.
2. An infinite bonus to fear would make a natural 1 still fail.
3. An infinite bonus to dragon's breath would not make you immune (since you take half damage on a successful save normally).
Immunity is not a bonus.
Actually, no - it's not absurd. A character with Exotic Weapon Proficiency is proficient with the weapon, and thus does not take that penalty.
Actually, actually, it does not make you proficient. Every single other proficiency feat takes away the -4 penalty in the Benefit section, even including Throw Anything. EWP does not. Not one of them describes you as "proficient" in a mechanical sense of the term. It's merely the name of the feat.
You need to recheck my posts. I provided another example with Exotic Weapon Proficiency. There are other feats as well with wonky effects if I apply them as I'm told to do in this thread.If the wording of spell immunity wasn't meant to be the point of debate, why did you pose an argument that hinges completely on that point?
Nothing in Fearless Aura says that your aura of courage now has an infinite bonus. The only argument you've offered that this is the case is the wording of spell immunity, and that argument does not prove the case.
Not relevant.
Fearless Aura does not grant or modify a bonus to aura of courage, so it has no effect on Dragonbane Aura. If you cannot refute this (which you have not), semantic arguments about whether and when feat text replaces original text are moot.
It's merely the name of the feat.
... ROTFLMAO!... good one.
K. Compare those feats to Bestow Weapon Proficiency. You'll see the difference.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, no - it's not absurd. A character with Exotic Weapon Proficiency is proficient with the weapon, and thus does not take that penalty.Actually, actually, it does not make you proficient. Every single other proficiency feat takes away the -4 penalty in the Benefit section, even including Throw Anything. EWP does not. Not one of them describes you as "proficient" in a mechanical sense of the term. It's merely the name of the feat.
And we've gone into "not really taking this seriously" land. I invoke SKR's Law of Cerebral Applications and depart the thread unless and until an argument worth addressing shows up.
Bye! Thanks for hanging out.
Spell Resistance granting "unbeatable SR" doesn't qualify as a precedent such that immunity = infinite bonus. The logical corollary to "immunity equals infinite bonus" is any automatic success would also be an infinite bonus. This isn't how pathfinder treats immunity or automatic successes.
I honestly don't understand where your confusion comes from. The Dragonbane aura says "gain the bonus from aura of courage to saves vs dragon breath". Fearless Aura doesn't change the bonus IN ANY WAY. There isn't even an implication that it changes the bonus. The Aura becomes +4 vs fear effects (and also immune to fear effects).
The confusion stems from the general application of feats. If the benefit overrides the normal behavior, there is no more bonus and DbA is moot with FA. If the benefit of feats overlap with normal behavior, then there are a lot of other feats that seemingly break. EWP is one.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
If you don't think Exotic Weapon Proficiency gives proficiency, I don't know what to tell you.
A:Fearless Aura grants immunity to fear to characters in a Paladin's Aura of Courage
B:The bonus is removed from Aura of Courage because the paladin has the Fearless Aura feat
C:Aura of courage grants it's bonus to saves vs dragon breath via the Dragonbane Aura feat.
Where are you getting B from?
Okay. If immunity is an infinite bonus, then logically you still fail your save against dragonfear if you roll a natural 1, since a natural 1 automatically fails saves regardless of bonus.
This is not the case. Therefore, immunity is not a bonus.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of exotic weapon.
If you don't think Exotic Weapon Proficiency gives proficiency, I don't know what to tell you.
Throughout the sections talking about weapons and armor they refer to proficiency and nonproficiency with a single weapon, single type of armor, etc. If you're not proficient with a weapon you take a -4 penalty to attacks. None of the proficiency feats ever describe you as proficient. They simply negate the -4 nonproficiency penalty. So, you swing a weapon, you have a -4 nonproficiency penalty, and your proficiency feats negate that. You're still not proficient, per se. You simply have no more penalty for that weapon.
EWP distinctly does not do this unless you read feats such that the Benefit section OVERRIDES the Normal section. This way you similarly have no more nonproficiency penalty.
If you read the bestow weapon proficiency spell, it does call you proficient with a weapon. By virtue of being proficient, rather than having the penalty negated, it is never applied. This is the fundamental difference and is what I mean by the proficiency feats never granting proficiency.
The end result is the same. How you mechanically arrive there is different. As is, should something else be introduced to the system that requires proficiency rather than a zeroed out nonproficiency penalty, the current feats would be lacking and need errata.
A:Fearless Aura grants immunity to fear to characters in a Paladin's Aura of Courage
B:The bonus is removed from Aura of Courage because the paladin has the Fearless Aura feat
C:Aura of courage grants it's bonus to saves vs dragon breath via the Dragonbane Aura feat.
Where are you getting B from?
So, Fearless Aura's normal condition describes a bonus to fear with a benefit section describing immunity to fear. Taking the rules interpretation from EWP, that benefit overrides normal. The result is there is no more bonus. Rather, you have immunity to fear.
Conversely, if a feat's benefit overlaps their normal condition, rather than override, EWP is useless since attacking normally with the text of the EWP feat says you take a -4 nonproficiency penalty to attacks with the weapon you selected as the benefit never removes this penalty as the other proficiency feats do.
Assuming they override so EWP mechanically works as intended, Dragonsbane Aura has no bonus to apply to breath weapons. Lacking this bonus, the only thing the paladin with Fearless Aura's Aura of Courage has to offer with respect to fear is immunity. DbA would then apply that immunity to dragon's breath weapons. If this couldn't work, DbA is useless to a paladin with the Fearless Aura feat.
I'm not arguing for either. I simply see a crack in the universe of the rules and am trying to bring light to it so it can be filled. If Paizo intended for only one or the other to be taken, that's fine. When you parse out a build with both, it poses a question.
Since Buri is so content as to knowing what the definition of Immunity is just by referencing what a certain spell can do and its poorly listed example, let's bring it up as to how it's defined for it to affect creatures, as listed in the Beastiary:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
At no point does it state that being immune grants a numerical bonus, nor does it state that any such bonus (even assuming that we're going based off of the concept that immunity is a bonus) is of an infinite level.
It simply cancels out whatever the effects of the subject the creature is immune to. The effect does absolutely nothing. That's it. It's spelled out clear as day.
If you STILL don't believe that, then your game is in a crisis and the only thing that can make it work by the book is with houserules.
Again tho, if you're looking at lowbie combinations of feats/class abilities that would require Epic+ level abilities to otherwise pull-off, its generally not intended that way.
How is it lowbie?
Prerequisites: Aura of courage class feature, caster level 8th.
Prerequisites: Aura of courage class feature, caster level 8th.
You'd have to be level 13 to pull it off.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Meh, I'm not convinced.
|
I am a little late to the party on this one, but I had a recent question about the same feats and how they work together. I have only recently joined society play and just wanted to add something, but not resurrect old wounds. I think it is perfectly logical to question rules. We would have little use for lawyers if wording of rules and laws were never interpreted to mean multiple things.
This is my take on the situation just in case someone else comes along and is curious like I am.
The thing we need to do is examine the wording and what those words are referring to. They key word is "bonus". What is a bonus? I could not find an exact definition by Paizo, but every time I saw the word "bonus" it referred to a positive numerical number. The words "extra" and "added" seem to be referring to extra "text' describing a benefit.
Is a bonus only a numerical benefit or does it cover any numerical or worded benefit?
If a bonus can only be a numerical value, then the benefit of the Dragon's Bane Aura can only apply a numerical benefit since it states: When fighting dragons, your aura of courage expands to a 20-foot-radius emanation, and allies in the aura gain a morale bonus on saving throws against dragon breath equal to your aura of courage’s bonus against fear effects. I would say that an Aasimar's FCB of +1/6 to auras would adjust that final bonus.
I guess the argument that was being made is whether immunity is referring to a numerical bonus or not. Several things can give immunity but I decided to look at critical hits instead of SR. You can have a feat that says you automatically succeed at a critical hit. No roll to confirm is needed. A creature can have immunity to critical hits and there is no way an attack can confirm a critical hit. In this case immunity is being used not as a numerical value, but instead saying that a certain action will not happen. Immunity to a critical hit means that a critical hit can never be confirmed. This means a roll is never made. If a 20 always succeeds then critical hit could be confirmed no matter how high of an AC a creature has. In this case immunity would not be considered a bonus if a bonus can only be a numerical value.
Fearless Aura replaces a +4 morale bonus to fear with immunity to fear.
Dragonbane Aura states your aura gains a bonus, which must be a numerical value, equal to the morale bonus provided by aura of courage.
Paizo really should have made Dragonsbane Aura and Fearless Aura two separate auras with their own benefits and not said they were tied to the aura of courage feat.
I do understand what the original author of this post was questioning and I know how wording of certain entries can lead to confusion.
I love playing Paladins, but I would give my vote that Dragonsbane gives the +4 and any additional modifiers that would adjust the value of a Paladin's Aura of Courage fear save.
This is my take on how I interpret what is written. I am not saying that I am right, but I wanted to present my understanding of the text that brought me to my conclusion.