Point buy Proficiency for Non-Level dependent DCs

[KingRichard21]

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For my Homebrewmix of DnD 5, PF2 and my own leveling system i chose proficiency to work like this:

Untrained +0
Trained +2
Expert +4
Master +6
Greatmaster +8
Legendary +10

You can point by your proficiency directly with the EP you get. The price is scaling like this for Skills and everything that uses a d20 roll (like casting in my world):

U 0 ep
T 1 ep
E 3 ep
M 6 ep
G 10 ep
L 15 ep

A level is made up of 10 ep and you need a minimum level to increase to ceartain proficiencies:

U lvl 1
T lvl 1
E lvl 3
M lvl 6
G lvl 10
L lvl 15

If I want a skill/feat/talent/ability to be harder to learn I start with 2 EP or more and go like this:

U 0 ep
T 2 ep
E 5 ep
M 9 ep
G 14 ep
L 20 ep

So this time a Legendary Proficiency is worth 2 levels of ep. This is my approach to easily classify feats and adjust them if needed. My goal is not a fully balanced system, but a system that can integrate and dynamicly adapt to the special features the players wish to have for their characters.

Thanks for the feedback :)

[Unicore]

So this is a classless system? Do the players earn their E.P all at once or over time? Are all class features just feats?

My major observation to add without knowing the answers to the questions above is:
It is going to be very easy, and most beneficial for most characters to advance all important things (saves, AC and primary attack) simultaneously to expert by level 5, which might make characters feel pretty similar to each other, and for skills generally to fall behind when players have the means to boost "every round" kind of abilities. Making the vital stuff play off the higher cost chart might balance it, or it might just make players invest even less in skills. You might find that the GM has to pay more careful attention to DCs than in PF2 because pushing skills past expert is just not going to be worth the point investment.

[KingRichard21]

Yes my first idea was to overcome the classbased system.

It's not:
"I am a wizard, so i can cast spells."
"I am a fighter, therefore i can hit hard with a sword."

It should be:
"I can cast spells. That makes me a wizard."
"I can hit hard with my sword, thats why i am a good fighter."

EPs should be earned stepwise for good roleplay or advancement in the story. Not for every Monster slaughtered.

It should be about the story anyway. I see that my system could encourage powergaming, but i hope it allows for diverse charakter builds. A Jack of all trades should be possible, but the highly specified freak also and everything in between.

You can increase 15 things from trained to expert before you can increase to master.

So i have the option between 6 saves, different weapon types (you train swords or axes for example), 8 magic schools, your spell repertoire, your spell dc/attack, your spells/day (yes, everybody can cast spells) and lots of skills including languages and lore.
(AC is now your Dex save, and Armor some kind of damage reduction).
I bet there is enough options for diverse characters.

I will consider making the choice to go Legendary definitly viable.

If you are little patient, I can finish writing my Hombrewsystem PDF (and translate it to english).
Because there are some significant changes to magic, the damage system including armor and weapons and the saving throws. All in all thats so much, that I am very curious to get feedback.

[Exocist]

The problem with making everything cost the same EP is that it encourages people to go deep into one thing, then put the rest into defenses.

There's little reason for a fighter to become legendary in both swords and axes, and indeed at any point he is not using both he is effectively wasting 15 points. Instead, it is better for him to become legendary swords, then legendary in all saves and armour, then start thinking about skills, as these are the d20 checks that are the most relevant and actually impact their survivability.

I would, at the very least, award EP for "Offensive Skills" (Weapons, casting, etc.", "Defensive skills" (Saves, armour) and "Noncombat skills" (athletics, acrobatics, etc.) at different rates so you don't run into this problem. And even then, we still have issues where the fighter going into axes doesn't really gain much (an axe is a sidegrade from a sword), but a fighter going into a spellcasting school gains a lot, so taking a second weapon group is basically a trap.

[KingRichard21]

Thanks for the comment. I will think about it.

Inspired by Unicore i changed a lot today:

Its now:

U 0
T 4
E 9
M 15
G 22
L 30

So the step G to L costs just twice as much as U to T. If the max Proficiency at a ceartain Level stays like this;

T lvl 1
E lvl 3
M lvl 6
G lvl 10
L lvl 15

Then you have a very limited number of skills anyway. So maxing one weapon and then the saves wont be that much of an issue.

Even if, powergamers will be confronted with powerbosses and will be killed by their achillespoint. ^^

And dont forget, that feats also cost ep.

For the second Weapon thing: thats a very good point and i will come up with something.

Thanks for commenting :D

[KingRichard21]

I remember taking the special Damage Reduction of the Armor more into account. (Like plate is good vs slashing)
So if you go fighter you want a least two weapons with different damage type and a third for ranged attacks.

Also the critical options for weapons are available for all. So if you like knocking your target prone with a hammer and then kicking them arround with your second hand club. You definitly want a legendary offhand ^^.

[Temperans]

One possible way to handle Proficiency in a broad subject vs proficiency in a specific subject is by applying "similartity discounts" and "bundles". Swinging Axes, Swords, Hammers, Picks, and Clubs all have a similar base form and as such you can probably say that learning 1 will help learn a weaker form of the others.

***************
For example:

You could do something like: Increasing proficiency in one of Swords, Hammers, Axes, Picks, or Clubs will half the cost of upgrading to the previous tier (round up) in the others.

So getting Expert in Swords for 9 would mean getting Trained in Axes would cost 2 instead of 4, it would still cost 9 to get to Expert in Axes.
Going from Master to Grandmaster in Swords for 22, would mean going from Expert to Master in Axes for 8 instead of 15, it would still take 22 to go to Grandmaster in Axes.

**** P.S. I gave 1 potential example of a group, but the actual grouping would need to be looked at more closely.

[KingRichard21]

Well how about training Slashing-weapons. That way you can either swing an axe or a sword, but need another proficiency for spears and clubs.
Also splitting in ranged and melee gives you six different options.
Although i cant imagine a slashing ranged weapon.

Just like schools give access to multiple spells. This way you gain access to multiple weapons.

[Temperans]

Chakrams, some throwing daggers, throwing axes, razorwire bolas, Starknifes, technically some chained weapons where you "throw" one end, etc. There are actually a lot or slashing thrown weapons. Btw there are many types of arrow heads, a lot of which are for slashing/cutting into the prey. Ususally to cause bleeding.

Having said that going by damage type + attack type does make things a bit easier to distinguish between groups then what I said. As always polearms are weird since they behave slightly differently than shorter weapons.

[KingRichard21]

My Idea for weapons and Armor.

There are 3 types of each:

Light +1

Martial/Medium +2

Two Handed/Heavy +3

For a Weapon add you STR or DEX and for the Armor your KON.

For an Attack just compare the Weapon with the Armor and deal damage like this:

Weapon - Armor =

0 or less 1d4
1 1d6
2 1d8
3 1d10
4 or more 1d12

So there is still a chance for low level threats and one shot kills are not that common.

Polearms would be slashing a melee weapon with range and fall into the two-handed category.

[Temperans]

I didnt quite get that last post. What is KON or that weapon-armor table?

Also did you intend to say slashing melee weapon with reach, or combining a melee weapon with reach? That part also confused me a bit.

[KingRichard21]

Sry. German spelling.
KON is your Constitution modifier.

Example:

A attacks B. So A rolls vs the Dexterity Save DC of B. If A hits, damage is dealt.

If A has a Strengh of +2 and a longsword +2, which is 4 in total.

B has a Constitution of +1 and an armor of +1, so 2.

Weapon - Armor = 4-2 = 2

So according to the table, it does 1d8 damage.

HP are also independent of the level and scale with the Constitution Save.

I thouht a polearm would be a +3 melee weapon with reach. (Or a range of 3m).