Shield Fighter Viability (2h) - Check build concept, advise

[Shorticus]

I've decided I wanted to add a character that two-hands a shield to my backlog of characters I would like to play one day, and this archetype stood out to me even though it can't get Advanced Weapon Training.

The concept I have is simple:

Human Fighter, racial feat is Racial Heritage (Halfling). Take the Helpful (Halfling) trait. Also take the Aldori Caution trait (Cautious Warrior on the SRD).

For 1st level feats grab Cautious Fighter and Power Attack, then at 2nd level grab Blundering Defense.

At third level dip into Unchained Monk (full BAB, gets Dodge and Imp. Unarmed Strike). Take the 'Crane Style' feat. Make sure to have 3 ranks in Acrobatics by this point for the extra AC when fighting defensively.

Go two more levels into Fighter, taking Improved Shield Bash and Combat Reflexes. By level 7 this character will have Bodyguard.

In short: play as a fairly standard but defensive fighter at 1st level and 2nd level, then start providing AC to adjacent allies at 3rd when fighting defensively. -2 attack for fighting defensively grants you 6 AC (2+1{trait}+2{feat}+1{acrobatics}) and grants your adjacent allies +3 AC, which frankly isn't bad for keeping the melee line strong. At that level you're still using a two-hander, probably. Then at 5th level you start two-handing your shield, and thus have AC from your shield with two-handed strength power attack bonuses. Finally, at 7th level you add at least +4 to AC to your allies with Bodyguard, and you can use your Swift Action to grant allies an AC bonus.

If you stick with Shielded Fighter for 7 levels, this means gaining +2 extra AC from fighting defensively on top of what's already written, granting half of that (+1) with Blundering Defense on top of what you already grant, and granting your adjacent allies yet another +1 AC as a swift action, and using Bodyguard to protect them further. So, by character level 8, we're looking at:

Fight Defensively > get +8 AC for -2 attack. Grant adjacent allies +4 AC. Swift action > grant adjacent allies another +1 AC. If ally is attacked, use Bodyguard to say "screw that!" and provide at least an extra +4 AC vs. that attack.

This is all well and good, but the problem I see so far is a low attack bonus. On the bright side, the character's attack penalty won't drop any faster from Fighting Defensively unlike Combat Expertise, but they're still contending with Power Attack. They have full BAB but don't get any Advanced Weapon Training tricks because of how Fighter archetypes work.

Depending on how Solo Tactics and Harrying Partners interact, this COULD be a build that wants to dip 3 levels into Inquisitor for that purpose. Spend an AoO to grant an ally +AC for the whole turn? Yes, please!

Any thoughts on this? Obviously this is a build that wants to stand next to anyone else in the melee line and stick to them like glue. You're bolstering your melee partners in AC rather than flanking with them to provide attack. Will this work out? Would the damage sacrificed to make your allies have high AC be worth it? You're still two-handing a shield for 2H damage and bashing nerds in the face. Is that enough?

How would you improve on this build if you wanted to roll with something like this?

I get the feeling this build would be a "fifth man" character for an already melee oriented party.

[Shorticus]

Oh, quick note of error - I forgot that Crane Style increases the Dodge bonus to AC by one. So actually I think the AC calculations are...

Level 3: -2 attack, +7 AC, +3 AC to allies
Level 4: -2 attack, +8 AC, +4 AC to allies, swift action +1 AC to one ally
Level 8: -2 attack, +9 AC, +4 AC to allies, swift action +2 AC to one ally or +1 AC to all adjacent allies, spend AoOs to provide at least +4 more AC to an ally via Bodyguard vs. a single attack

Those numbers aren't bad. But the question still stands:

Can I make this better? Is this viable (since it's low DPR compared to, say, a Fighter or Barbarian fully dedicated to smashing faces)? Would you want this on your team? How would you improve this?

[Wonderstell]

Shorticus wrote:

Depending on how Solo Tactics and Harrying Partners interact, this COULD be a build that wants to dip 3 levels into Inquisitor for that purpose. Spend an AoO to grant an ally +AC for the whole turn? Yes, please!

Bodyguard still requires you to threaten the enemy, which makes it hard to aid an ally if the enemy has reach or uses ranged attacks. Or simply attacks slightly from the side instead of from the front.

The build will probably not feel very impactful unless you're constantly surrounded by allies, and even then it's not a huge increase to AC if we disregard the unreliable Aid Another.

[Shorticus]

Wonderstell wrote:

Shorticus wrote:

Depending on how Solo Tactics and Harrying Partners interact, this COULD be a build that wants to dip 3 levels into Inquisitor for that purpose. Spend an AoO to grant an ally +AC for the whole turn? Yes, please!

Bodyguard still requires you to threaten the enemy, which makes it hard to aid an ally if the enemy has reach or uses ranged attacks. Or simply attacks slightly from the side instead of from the front.

The build will probably not feel very impactful unless you're constantly surrounded by allies, and even then it's not a huge increase to AC if we disregard the unreliable Aid Another.

With Enlarge Person, Lunge, or another way of increasing your size, the threatening issue would change. Also, while that IS the RAW, the designer of the feat Bodyguard has expressly said that the intent was never to require the user to threaten the enemy. But even within RAW, there are ways to circumvent the issue. (Glove of Storing + a whip to use between turns is another option at higher levels.)

So, I know I can get Bodyguard off, and I know I can provide the AC consistently. Having played an Archivist using similar defensive abilities, parties adapt and take advantage of the "safety dance."

However, whether or not it's providing enough defense to compensate for the lag in offense is the real question. With appropriate investment you can provide some nice AC bonuses, but you aren't really doing much more damage that shield bash + 1.5xSTR + power attack + weapon enchantments, at least for the first several levels. That's the real issue: this character doesn't seem like a replacement for a key frontliner, but rather someone you take once the basic party roles are established already.

So, what are the best ways to:

- improve damage output
- ensure the defenses provided via blundering defense, bodyguard, and active defense are constant
- and ensure those defenses are sufficient
- have a character whose cost in damage is worth what he grants allies in defense

If we're trying to go for something like the above build?

[Wonderstell]

Shorticus wrote:

With Enlarge Person, Lunge, or another way of increasing your size, the threatening issue would change.

Lunge only increases your reach during your turn so that wouldn't help you with Bodyguard.

Shorticus wrote:

Also, while that IS the RAW, the designer of the feat Bodyguard has expressly said that the intent was never to require the user to threaten the enemy. But even within RAW, there are ways to circumvent the issue. (Glove of Storing + a whip to use between turns is another option at higher levels.)

Paizo went out and directly contradicted the designer's intent with this FAQ, so you'd need to threaten. The whip trick works, but it won't help against ranged attacks.

Shorticus wrote:

So, what are the best ways to:

- improve damage output
- ensure the defenses provided via blundering defense, bodyguard, and active defense are constant
- and ensure those defenses are sufficient
- have a character whose cost in damage is worth what he grants allies in defense

If we're trying to go for something like the above build?

I'd get out of the Fighter class after you have that third level. Increasing your Dodge bonus to an even amount is probably worth a level, but not more than that.

Avenger Vigilante would give you full BAB, an equal amount of bonus feats (or more), social talents, and a good will save.
Occultist with the Trappings of the Warrior panoply for full BAB and bane on the fly, which would instantly solve your damage output worries.

And instead of bodyguard I'd take the Crane Wing feat so that your total Dodge bonus increases to +12. While +4 of those are only against melee attacks, that particular restriction doesn't matter for Blundering Defense. Which means your allies would add another +2 luck bonus to AC and you don't need to think of specific positioning for bodyguard.
Crane Wing requires you to have one hand free, so just two-hand the shield during your turn and change your grip when you're done attacking.

[UncleExpendable]

It's possible I'm just in love with this option because I was using it on my King of Tetherball build, but if you took "Equipment Trick: Shield" you could treat your shield as both a manufactured weapon and an improvised weapon, depending on which was more advantageous. That'd clear you to pick up Surprise Weapon for a solid +2 trait bonus to hit with it. Does that help at all?

[Shorticus]

UncleExpendable wrote:

It's possible I'm just in love with this option because I was using it on my King of Tetherball build, but if you took "Equipment Trick: Shield" you could treat your shield as both a manufactured weapon and an improvised weapon, depending on which was more advantageous. That'd clear you to pick up Surprise Weapon for a solid +2 trait bonus to hit with it. Does that help at all?

Immensely!

Quote:

I'd get out of the Fighter class after you have that third level. Increasing your Dodge bonus to an even amount is probably worth a level, but not more than that.

Definitely worth considering. I like the options you've presented - some extra damage wouldn't hurt at all...

Quote:

And instead of bodyguard I'd take the Crane Wing feat so that your total Dodge bonus increases to +12. While +4 of those are only against melee attacks, that particular restriction doesn't matter for Blundering Defense. Which means your allies would add another +2 luck bonus to AC and you don't need to think of specific positioning for bodyguard.

I don't know that it would work the way you say. Because those dodge bonuses don't apply to everything, it might not work properly with Blundering Defense.

But that DID get me thinking, and I realize that Draconic Defender is a good feat option...

I'll do more digging and think about how to handle this.