| SpaceWhale42 |
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Hello folks!
I am currently rolling a new level 3 character for our playgroup (my previous Goblin Barbarian has been discontinued due to a re-location into the stomach of a Worg) and I am stuck between class decisions. My overall goal with this character is to be the Main Martial Tank/Presence, as the rest of my party consists of a Damage Dealing caster, a cleric healer/Damage Dealer, and a rogue that likes to sneak around and flank (and do lots of damage).
Since everyone is really only interested in doing Damage, I wanted to try to fill the role of Battlefield Control and/or de-buffer as well, to protect my squishy allies and/or make it easier for them to do damage. I had three ideas as how I want to do this, but are unsure if they would even work or if there is a better option that I am not seeing:
Champion - Take Redeemer Reaction, Load up on Heavy Armor and a Tower Shield, Maybe take Bard Dedication for Fear and other spells like that, and try to use Athletics to keep people away from my buddies and wedge myself in the way
Monk - Take a stance and Stunning fist, and load up on High Mobility to get to the bad guys first before they get to my guys, then use shove/trip shenanigans to keep them occupied and flat-footed while my allies fire away
Fighter - Heavy Armor and 2H reach weapon, use Brutish shove feat to keep baddies away
What is your favorite way to play Battlefield Control and/or Tank Martial?
| SuperBidi |
The Monk won't control anything.
The Fighter is a good controller, but an offensive one. You'll deal tons of damage to monsters who are moving in your area of effect, but you're not attracting blows more than that. So, if the monsters focus on your Rogue ally, you'll just look at them ripping him appart.
The Champion is your true controller. You just need Champion Reaction to push monsters to attack you instead of your comrades. Besides that, don't use a Tower Shield, it's hyper heavy and doesn't add anything above a normal shield.
| Unicore |
I know your party already has a rogue, but I'd say that the rogue is really good for doing the kind of battlefield debuffing that you are talking about. If you go with a scoundrel or a Ruffian and proritize Charisma, Str and then Con, you can keep all of your relevant combat skills (deception, athletics, Intimidation) very high and get all the relevant skill feats much faster than any other martial class. The D8 HP makes tanking a little tough, but if you have STR and CHA, you can MC to Champion at Lvl 2 and be wearing heavy armor and still carrying a tower shield, leaving a your other hand open for wrestling (a spiked gauntlet still qualifies for sneak attack damage).
Rogue is a class with such a broad range of capabilities that a strong, intimidating tough guy rouge is not going to be stepping on a sneaky/stabby thiefy rouge.
| SpaceWhale42 |
Interesting, I actually never thought to do a Ruffian/Scoundrel Rogue! In the Ruffian's case, would it be worth it at all to use a weapon or should I stick mainly to the spiked gauntlet? For example, using the Human Ancestry feat Unconventional Weaponry to get an Martial weapon down to Simple proficiency and use it?
| Unicore |
Interesting, I actually never thought to do a Ruffian/Scoundrel Rogue! In the Ruffian's case, would it be worth it at all to use a weapon or should I stick mainly to the spiked gauntlet? For example, using the Human Ancestry feat Unconventional Weaponry to get an Martial weapon down to Simple proficiency and use it?
I'd talk to your GM about that before assuming it would work. The unconventional weaponry feat does specify that the weapon only qualifies as a simple weapon "for the purpose of determining your proficiency."
but the reason I suggested staying open handed was for the ability to grab enemies. If you cary a weapon and a shield, you lose out on that battlefield control option.
| Kyrone |
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Monk actually have a really cool way of control, use combat maneuvers, feats like flurry of maneuvers and mixed maneuver are great ways for you to Grapple + Trip, and they can't stand up without breaking your grapple and while prone they have -2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls.
I personally like to combine that strategy with Crane Stance and Crane Flutter, if they try to attack you while prone you have a big chance of avoiding the attack and counter it, if they get out of the grapple they will have MAP and again it will be easier to avoid the attack and counter.
| Gaulin |
My vote goes to monk. I haven't played any of these martials, to be fair, but just from character building for fun Monk has a lot of cool tools. The coolest of which is whirling throw. There is no cooler controlling move as whirling throw. Plus you have stand still, which in some ways is better than attack of opportunity for controlling movement.
Red Griffyn
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Personally, I think the Fighter, Champion, and Monk all have great potential for different reasons.
Fighter has an AoO and with a reach weapon can really cause some havoc as the reaction strikes don't suffer MAP and they're sitting at +2 to hit. If you pick the right weapon type, the crit effects can cause creatures to be knocked prone, so after L5 you threaten to trip on you first attack, and possibly trigger another free trip on the AoO.
Champion Reactions are great because they save a bit of damage but incentivize enemies to come after you to avoid them (also saving others because you've got lay on hands and +2 AC over others). The champion really needs to pick up AoO at L6 to help lock down enemies though who otherwise can walk on by it and that competes with things people might want to try like smite evil.
Monk has some really great abilities for control due to the Bo staff having reach and access to Stunning Fist (L2), Stand Still (L4), Flurry of Maneuvers(Assurance(athletics) for mooks), and Tangled Forest Stance (L8). Holding a bo staff you could attack, attack, flurry (assurance trip twice with no MAP) and combine a success with the wolf fang to trigger a stunning fist effect. Then if they try to move away or get up they have to make a check due to tangled forest, you get a strike and can interrupt it with stand still, they may be stunned from stunning fist, and if you were an Iruxi with the ancestry feats to get the brawling group crit effects you could possibly crit and have another chance to apply slowed (doesn't stack with stunned), and you get an AoO that can interrupt on a crit. If you're creative, a MC Sorcerer could net you a reach unarmed strike at L4 with the tentacle focus spell.
Personally, I think a Fighter MC Champion who gets the champion reaction will be the best tank. The combination of a reach weapon who's crit specialization causes prone and the L1 Paladin feat for ranged reprisal gives you a big 15ft aura of control. The fighter also gets various ways to pick up more total reactions (either additional shield blocks, combat reflexes at L10, etc.) and gets extra feats from the base class chassis to make up for the MC. People won't like me saying it, but a sword and board fighter using gnome flickmace is a solid choice and lets you trip lock creatures off crits (which are far more likely from the +2, - remember your reaction strikes don't suffer MAP!). The fighter can also get lunge to add another +5ft to your reach for one attack, sudden charge to get into the fray in heavy armour, and can grab lay on hands if desired.
The other solid tank because of the crit specializations and +2 to hit are Figther MC Wizards. Shifting rune + Staff of divination + ring of wizardry + all slots = true strike and you can will have lots of true strikes per day to further drive towards the crit specialization of your weapon. Combine that with fighter feats like swipe and you could be tripping things all over the place (again if they stand up that gives a free AoO against their flatfooted AC and burns the enemies action).
| lemeres |
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A trip+stunning fist monk can accomplish the main goal of a tank (making an enemy focus on them) by nuking the enemy's action economy so it can't move to a different target and get off an attack in the same round. Either it wastes a turn only doing a single move, or it tries to attack the closest target (usually the monk).
As a note, wolf drag is nice, but not for the reason listed in the feat. A regular trip knocks enemies prone with only a single action, and you can trip+flurry as a 2 action combo for more damage and with extra debuff potential. Wolf drag only shines when you look for 3 action combos.
A successful Trip+Flurry+Strike with an agile style has a bonus of 0 (trip)/-2(strike)/-6(strike)/-6(strike) once you factor in flat footed. But a wolf drag+flurry has bonuses of 0(strike)/-2(strike)/-6(strike) because you remove the MAP from the trip.
So you still have a similar combo of three attacks and a prone enemy, but the numbers are nicer. Particularly since you get extra crit damage with your first hit with this style
It might be weird for a monk to go for this kind of "full attack" strategy... but you also nuke enemy action economy so they have trouble getting away from you. So wolf drag is for when you are in the second turn with an enemy, and trying to finish them off. Wolf style monks are good at focusing on an enemy and breaking them- which also conveniently stops the enemy from doing much else in a fight.
They are also good at kicking enemies when they are down (stand still reaction against standing up from prone)