My monk has Stealth, and uses Avoid Notice whenever possible to better get the drop on her enemies. All very ninja like, except that I'm not sure that it works.
Lately, we've been doing a lot of dungeon delving, and when an encounter starts, I often find myself around the corner of a doorway or around a bend of a tunnel in the previous area. (There usually aren't too many places to hide, and the enemy is almost always out in the open.)
So initiative is rolled and I start the encounter undetected, or perhaps even unnoticed (unlikely as my friends usually just charge in before me). However, if I'm reading the rules right, it's nearly impossible for me to leave my hiding spot, cross the open ground to my target, and Strike with any kind of advantage (such as having them be flat-footed).
The moment I come out of cover, I go from undetected to observed and lose all advantage.
Stealth says ""
Do I have that right? What am I missing?
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As far as I understand the stealth rules you will not get detected if you make your stealth roll and end your move in cover or concealment.
That means that you can stealth up to a foe and get him flatfooted provided you can reach him in 1 move action (or manage to end each move action in cover on your way up to your foe)
Nope, when you end your move, you are no longer stealthed if you don't have cover/concealment, so you can't use a stealth check to make your opponent flat-footed against a melee attack in most situations without some other bonus.
Note the existence of Spring from the Shadows [Rogue 12] feat, which specifically states 'you remain hidden from or undetected by that creature until after you Strike.' as this is a specific exception to the general rules:
You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
Feats like Legendary Sneak [Skill 15] and Very, Very Sneaky [Goblin 13] allow you to get around the need for Concealment/Cover, but only at fairly high levels.
Sneak action:
Success: You're undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the crature at the end of it. You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or step. If you attempt to strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just Before you act unless the GM determines otherwise.Unless there is an errata that I am not aware of you can strike your foe and get the flat-footed condition at least.
There's not errata, but there's the entire first part of the ability that you ignored.
SNEAK [one-action]
MOVE SECRET
You can attempt to move to another place while becoming
or staying undetected. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can
use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming
instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement
type; you must move at half that Speed.)
If you’re undetected by a creature and it’s impossible for that
creature to observe you (for a typical creature, this includes
when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in
darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), for any critical
failure you roll on a check to Sneak, you get a failure instead.
You also continue to be undetected if you lose cover or greater
cover against or are no longer concealed from such a creature.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth
check in secret and compares the result to the Perception
DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by
at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater
cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the
+2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover)
to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus
increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll
against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither
are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against
it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
Ravingdork, taking the Rogue Dedication is what you want. That gets you Surprise Attack, so if you use Stealth for Initiative, any enemy who has not gotten a turn yet is Flat Footed to you.
Almost my entire party has the Rogue Dedication, because if you have any level with a dead Class Feat, which most Classes do, the Rogue Dedication just gets you so much no matter what class you are. 2 Skill Boosts, a Skill Feat, Surprise Attack all for just a single Feat with super easy Prerequisites.
Okay, so it's my first turn. Since I used Avoid Notice and made a good Stealth check, I am unobserved (possibly even unnoticed). To catch the enemy off-guard, I need to start with the Sneak action rather than the Stride action. Ending my movement next to the foe I make a Strike. Provided my Sneak action's Stealth check beats their Perception DC, they are flat-footed against my Strike. After a failed Stealth check to Sneak, or after the Strike on a successful Stealth check, I am observed by that foe (and likely others as well). Is that right?
If so, can I then take another Sneak action to become hidden or unobserved again?
I'd very much like to Sneak Strike Sneak each round.
I can't quote rules text at the moment but my understanding is that first you need to become Hidden to a creature in order to effectively Sneak around it. This is not so hard to do if you are in an area of Concealment or have Cover, since you could take your last action to Hide in the square you attacked from, then optionally Sneak around it with your next round to become totally Undetected.
Alternatively you will have to spend another Stride to move back to the area of Concealment (Darkness whathaveyou) Hide--or to a place where your foes couldn't detect so you could begin next round Undetected again would be more efficient
...my understanding is that first you need to become Hidden to a creature in order to effectively Sneak around it.
I can't seem to find that rule, either in the Stealth skill, the Sneak action, or in any errata. If it's true, wouldn't there be a requirement line like "REQUIREMENT: You must be Hidden or Unobserved" under the Sneak action similar to how numerous other abilities have requirement line?
Why would the developers break formatting?
I can't quote rules text at the moment but my understanding is that first you need to become Hidden to a creature in order to effectively Sneak around it. This is not so hard to do if you are in an area of Concealment or have Cover, since you could take your last action to Hide in the square you attacked from, then optionally Sneak around it with your next round to become totally Undetected.
Alternatively you will have to spend another Stride to move back to the area of Concealment (Darkness whathaveyou) Hide--or to a place where your foes couldn't detect so you could begin next round Undetected again would be more efficient
It's in the rules I quoted earlier.
SNEAK [one-action]
MOVE SECRET
You can attempt to move to another place while becoming
or staying undetected. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can
use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming
instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement
type; you must move at half that Speed.)
If you’re undetected by a creature and it’s impossible for that
creature to observe you (for a typical creature, this includes
when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in
darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), for any critical
failure you roll on a check to Sneak, you get a failure instead.
You also continue to be undetected if you lose cover or greater
cover against or are no longer concealed from such a creature.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth
check in secret and compares the result to the Perception
DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by
at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater
cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the
+2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover)
to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus
increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll
against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither
are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against
it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
Borrowing from Aratorin's post, I think this may be the line, though a thorough reading of the full text may yield a different opinion
"At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth
check in secret and compares the result to the Perception
DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by
at the start of your movement."
Basically my understanding is that the function of the Hide action is to set up for a Sneak (rather than being as I initially read, an immobile, less effective Sneak)
EDIT: oop, I see
ADDENDUM: I imagine the reason why being Undetected or Hidden is not listed in a 'Requirements' block is because you may still attempt a Sneak action even if you are in plain view--or more importantly, not as hidden as you think (in the case of special senses like echolocation)--but you only achieve results against specifically opponents who were not directly observing you already.
Yeah. It would be odd.
GM: You can't sneak.
PC: What? Why on Golarion not?
GM: Because the invisible stalker is observing you.
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Okay, so it's my first turn. Since I used Avoid Notice and made a good Stealth check, I am unobserved (possibly even unnoticed). To catch the enemy off-guard, I need to start with the Sneak action rather than the Stride action. Ending my movement next to the foe I make a Strike. Provided my Sneak action's Stealth check beats their Perception DC, they are flat-footed against my Strike. After a failed Stealth check to Sneak, or after the Strike on a successful Stealth check, I am observed by that foe (and likely others as well). Is that right?
If so, can I then take another Sneak action to become hidden or unobserved again?
I'd very much like to Sneak Strike Sneak each round.
The moment you stop your movement without cover/concealment, you are noticed and your opponent is no longer flat footed.
If you want to sneak up on someone, you need cover/concealment all the way to (and including) your striking position. Normally, this means magic of some sort (like Invisiblity).
Let's look at the basic Sneak rules (note that there is almost certainly an exception to every rule, but we're going to stick with the basics here):
You can attempt to move to another place while becoming or staying undetected. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type; you must move at half that Speed.)
Okay, you are limited to half speed but can use special movement forms if you have them.
If you’re undetected by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature to observe you (for a typical creature, this includes when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), for any critical failure you roll on a check to Sneak, you get a failure instead. You also continue to be undetected if you lose cover or greater cover against or are no longer concealed from such a creature.
Circumstances can make sneaking easier.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the +2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
You don't need cover/concealment for all of your movement (though it helps if you do), but you do need it at the end.
Success You’re undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the creature at the end of it.
If you succeed on the check, you remain undetected. Just remember, you don't even get to make this check if you don't have cover/concealment at the end of your movement, so nothing in this section applies if you end up standing out in the open.
You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check. If you speak or make a deliberate loud noise, you become hidden instead of undetected.
If you are undetected and can somehow attack (easiest with a ranged weapon), your opponent is flat-footed for that attack, but you become observed right after.
If a creature uses Seek and you become hidden to it as a result, you must Sneak if you want to become undetected by that creature again.
If your opponent suspects you are there and actively looks for you, things become a little more difficult for you.
Failure A telltale sound or other sign gives your position away, though you still remain unseen. You’re hidden from the creature throughout your movement and remain so.
Fail the Stealth check, and you are merely hidden.
Critical Failure You’re spotted! You’re observed by the creature throughout your movement and remain so. If you’re invisible and were hidden from the creature, instead of being observed you’re hidden throughout your movement and remain so.
Yeah, kindly ask your GM to not roll a 1 for your stealth checks (it is a secret roll).
So, if you want to make your opponent flat-footed against your melee attacks by sneaking up on him, you really need something extra to make it work (Rogue's Surprise Attack class feature, higher level feats, magic, extreme circumstances, etc.)
So according to you it's impossible for someone (edit: non-rogues) to quickly sneak out of hiding and stab someone with an element of surprise?
That seems...wrong to me.
Your rules fu seems to be spot on, it's just that, that seems like something that should be possible.
So according to you it's impossible for someone (edit: non-rogues) to quickly sneak out of hiding and stab someone with an element of surprise?
That seems...wrong to me.
Your rules fu seems to be spot on, it's just that, that seems like something that should be possible.
Not 100% of the time.
If you are a rogue and you go first, YES!
If you end your movement in a square that threatens them and has any concealment/cover (wall, fog, bushes, darkness, corners), YES!
If you are invisible, they are blind, or other effects are inhibiting all their precise senses, YES!
If you have a feat or special ability (Spring from Shadows, very sneaky feat), YES!
If you are using a range weapon, YES!
If they are in the open, you have no special feats/abilities, nothing is impeding precise senses, and you end your movement without cover/concealment, No :(