Uses for the Scrying spell

[Xexyz]

Pre-core scrying was one of the best spells in the game. So I wasn't surprised when its addition to CotCT placed it at level 5. But I also see it's been nerfed pretty hard; now you reload the chosen card types instead of putting them on the top OR bottom. To be honest I think this makes the spell mostly useless now; I'd rather have the level 3 spell that allows me to examine and rearrange the top three cards of a location deck.

Am I overlooking potential uses for new scrying? About the only thing I can think to use it for now is to try to fish for boons.

Thoughts?

[Matsu Kurisu]

Agreed, its been nerfed real hard. And checking, looks like no Augury in core, so looks like the Devs wanted to tone down the usefulness of the augury type cards

[skizzerz]

Lets you shuffle nasty things you know to be on the top 3 cards hopefully further down into the deck, which a simple rearrange wouldn’t allow for.

That’s about all I can think of though compared to a spell that lets you just rearrange the top 3, and I don’t really think that shuffle is worth an extra 2 levels. I’d still probably find a slot for it in most decks though. Examining 3 cards is powerful in its own right even if you can’t necessarily control where in the location those cards end up.

[zeroth_hour2]

There were mainly 2 roles you had for Augury/Scrying effects pre-Core, one of which was nerfed and one of which wasn't:

1 was to henchman/villain scout, which you can still do by declaring story bane
2 was to dump monsters/barriers to the bottom of the deck, making it safer to explore

Now, Pre-Core Augury often combined the two when you named monster/barrier (whichever the story bane of the scenario was).

It still works fine as a henchman/villain scout, but 2 was just gravy anyway and probably made the game too "bypassable". (Not really a word)

And you can move cards you don't want out of the way by not naming them. It's not bad, just not an automatic 2-of in any deck that can support it, and I actually like that.

While I think moving it to 5 was probably a little extreme, the old augury-type cards were busted and I could understand why it was done.

[Yewstance]

Dot-pointing my relevant opinions here, since this seems to be a thread more to share opinions/observations than anything else.

I think that Augury (and Scrying) used to be much too powerful. Rise of the Runelords was the best example, since I would almost never see a party without at least one Augury or Scrying among the table even in the final adventure of the game, and there was effectively no other non-combat spells that could compare to either (except Cures). Quite frankly, you'd usually use both, or as many copies as either you could control, and entire scenarios would be defined by their use to the player's favor.

Augury and Scrying used to be worth almost 3 explorations in a rechargeable card; by naming Monster you can find a henchman 3 cards down and/or bottom-deck up to 3 monsters. Plus, it was a way to let literally any party bypass almost literally any problem card; I remember my Harsk/Ezren/Kyra RotR party having an issue with beating the Avalanche barrier (before Ezren found Disintegrate) and so we'd just start scrying barriers to the bottom to deal with it at an absolute minimal use of resources - 'recharge a spell' rather than 'use an exploration and discard two blessings and still have a chance of failure' type thing.

From those perspectives above, I'm happy for any kind of nerf, really. Even in Level 6 an old-Scrying is basically an auto-include (at least as a one-of) for just about any kind of spellcaster, regardless of their particular playstyle, specialty or party composition... and I personally think it's a bad thing if any boon/spell is an "automatic include" in a deck, since it takes away player agency if there's an obvious 'best' choice in any lineup of options.

With that all said...

I agree with Skizzerz above. It's not much better than Object Reading, but it is better than Object Reading. Maybe not two levels worth better, but the option of shuffling away a card or two that's been examined by something else (let's say Core Ezren's power finding a barrier that nobody on the team can easily fight, or would cause everyone in the team to suffer) whilst trying to pull something nicer to the top (like a closing story bane) is probably at least something of a bump over the more consistent - but restrictive - Object Reading.

I wonder if there's a way to make Scrying stronger than it is in Curse, but weaker than it was pre-Core, whilst keeping its general role the same? As a hypothetical.

EDIT: Ninja'd by zeroth_hour's post before mine. I find it interesting that the recent few opinions align on "Scrying is still good. Probably a little weaker than expected given how much later in the game you get it compared to Object Reading, but still a really good spell".

[Xexyz]

Yewstance wrote:

I agree with Skizzerz above. It's not much better than Object Reading, but it is better than Object Reading.

Personally I still prefer Object Reading. I'll give up the free shuffle in exchange for being able to stack the top three cards of the deck. Much easier recharge too.

[Yewstance]

Xexyz wrote:

Yewstance wrote:

I agree with Skizzerz above. It's not much better than Object Reading, but it is better than Object Reading.

Personally I still prefer Object Reading. I'll give up the free shuffle in exchange for being able to stack the top three cards of the deck. Much easier recharge too.

Totally fair! That there's a strategic value in both cards is ideal design IMO; 'strictly better' cards are less interesting to consider and discuss.

[Frencois]

Seen from a large party, I tend to agree that nerfing was not a bad decison in itself, but that it is now maybe to high in level. By the time you get to get it:
- You have much better spells to fill your slots
- You can totally live without it
So maybe it would have been best at a lower level.