See title. I'm looking at some Frog God Games titles because I want something with an old school feel, something that can scratch that classic dungeon crawling itch and the free world roaming bit. I've narrowed my options to two choices:
A) Rappan Athuk. It's a legend. It's a terrifying, deadly legend and it's a massive and pricey book, but DANG is it tempting. I've never played it, and my chief regret is that by running this game I'll never get a chance to experience it the way it should be.
But is it as good as it's supposed to be? It's advertised as a Hell dungeon, the megadungeon to rule all megadungeons. Is that the case? Does it work well in Pathfinder? Does it fall flat anywhere?
B) Stoneheart Valley. Shorter, sweeter, and considerably cheaper; still hard from what I'm reading, but not Rappan Athuk hard. Probably better for more intermediate players, I assume? Is this a good buy?
See, here's why I want them: the guys I play with have touched most of the Paizo APs already, and I was playing D&D when I was six years old. I remember having THAC0 on my sheet and I remember hex crawling and deadly traps. I want to bring a little bit of that back with me to the present day. Most importantly, I need to bring something to the table that's new to them.
...and maybe I want to see my friends at work in some tough dungeons.
But ultimately, I can only pick one of these books right now. What are their strong points? What are their weak points? And if you had to choose, which would you pick?
I don't have Stoneheart Valley, so I can't say anything about it, but I do have Rappan Athuk, so here's my take on that beast.
Its flavor is very old-school. It truly is treacherous. It starts on hard mode and progresses fairly steadily, right up to the secret levels. I wouldn't bet on any given party making it into the secret levels without tons of hand-holding, but that's where it ramps up past hard mode, and gets close to on par with the Tomb of Horrors.
Actually finishing the secret levels is old-school epic, and even getting to the final fight will be a memory for a lifetime.
It's wonky, in that old-school way. It cheats. It has weirdness beyond anything Paizo dares put out.
If that sounds good, you're old school, and it's right for you...but will it be right for your players? Bets are off.
How much of the content is secret levels, if I may ask?
It's been a little while since I've looked at it...without digging it up, I'm thinking it's maybe 16 levels and there are three extra secret levels. At any rate, it seemed to me that a party could spend a (real) year in the dungeon without ever finding the secret stuff.
The jump in power is pretty crazy. IIRC, you almost have to be 17th or 18th level to go into the secret levels, but you could - carefully - do the rest at somewhat lower levels. I'm thinking it recommends a party of 6th+ to even enter the place.
I do remember thinking that if I ran it, it wouldn't be all at once, but multiple trips. However - the secret levels are a commitment - once you get in, you're there for the long haul - do or die.
Maybe 14 and three. 17 total seems maybe right.
Ran both of them; I used Stoneheart Valley as a prequel campaign for RA back in the day, to get the players used to dungeon crawling.
Rappan Athuk is a killer mega-dungeon done right; it's deadly, and if your players aren't accustomed to dungeon campaigns, starting off with Stoneheart's dungeon might be easier.
RA is alongside Stonehell and Barrowmaze (both OSR-only, though) among my favorite megadungeons.
Personally,for PFRPG I prefer Sword of Air and Slumbering Tsar over RA.
Just my 2 cents!
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Endzeitgeist wrote: Ran both of them; I used Stoneheart Valley as a prequel campaign for RA back in the day, to get the players used to dungeon crawling.
Rappan Athuk is a killer mega-dungeon done right; it's deadly, and if your players aren't accustomed to dungeon campaigns, starting off with Stoneheart's dungeon might be easier.
RA is alongside Stonehell and Barrowmaze (both OSR-only, though) among my favorite megadungeons.
Personally,for PFRPG I prefer Sword of Air and Slumbering Tsar over RA.
Just my 2 cents!
As *the* pro reviewer, I'd take your advice over my own. ;)
Yeah, my players may be a little prone to getting attached to their characters. Starting them off with Stoneheart Valley may be a better idea given the reputation for Rappan Athuk.
You mention Sword of Air and Slumbering Tsar. Any particular reasons? What should I expect if I run one of those?
As stated above, get both. Stoneheart Valley can be used as a lead in to Rappan Athuk. If I had to choose, life or death, between the two, then I'd say just get Rappan Athuk.
But we're at the end of the Pathfinder edition cycle and all of those Frog God books and adventures are out of print and becoming harder to find and more expensive by the day. If you can afford it, just get them both. While you're at it, start getting the little Rappan Athuk expansions such as Expansion vol.1, Cyclopean Deeps and Zelkor's Ferry. Get them now rather than wish you had bought them much later when they're impossible to find.
@Shorticus:
Slumbering Tsar begins as an exploration of a magic wasteland that reminded me of the good parts of The Dark Tower; then, there's a HUGE ruin city and an epic, pretty vertical mega-dungeon. It also starts off at level 7, so depending on how your PCs fare, and how attached players get to their characters, it decreased PC lethality and player frustration. While ST was super brutal when it was released, since then, PF1-power-creep has made it much more manageable without making it feel toothless.
Sword of Air is another favorite of mine because it blends the hardcore aesthetics of old-school gaming with a strong, non-linear story that can go in radically different directions.
I'd btw. echo PFRPGGrognard's recommendation particularly for the Cyclopean Deeps books. These will be modern classics, and while high-level, are some of my favorite underdark books for PF1...and beyond, for that matter. If you can get these two, do so. Personally, I'd even prioritize them over RA, but that's just my personal taste. :)
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