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I was looking at two handed rend on the SRD recently and it say's. . .
*Note: It has been stated in an FAQ that this feat should function as the Universal Monster Ability Rend. In this case, the damage amount is the 1d10 +1-1/2 times your Strength+Other modifiers, like Power Attack, Piranha Strike, sneak attack (if both triggering attacks were eligible for it as well), etc. Weapon damage modifiers, such as enhancements, those specifically stated to be weapon damage bonuses, like divine favor, etc. do not apply to the feat’s bonus damage.
Now whether you apply this faq or not is a seperate thread. What I'm wondering is if you do apply this faq and give sneak attack damage on a two handed rend how do you deal with a weapon having different dice. Specifically the knife master rogue archetype gives you d8 on daggers in exchange for d4 on everything else. So assuming you used a sword and dagger, hit with main and offhand you'd deal say 4d8 damage sneak attack with the dagger and 4d4 sneak attack with the sword. How would you then resolve this on the two handed rend?
1) Half of each dice i.e. 2d8 + 2d4 sneak attack damage.
2) Split the difference i.e. 4d6 sneak attack damage.
3) Treat it the same as if one weapon didn't have sneak attack damage i.e. no sneak attack damage on the rend.
4) Something I've not thought of?
I know this is a rare exception and the DM may not even allow it to be applied on rend unless I can find the actual faq that explains this. However in the interest of future planning what would people say is the correct way to handle this?
If it requires both triggering attacks to be eligible, then it's the lower of the two IMO, i.e. 4d4.
Of course smart knife master rogues use two knives not a knife and a sword.
It may also be relevant to note that the faq in question if PFS, not general PF.
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If it requires both triggering attacks to be eligible, then it's the lower of the two IMO, i.e. 4d4.
Of course smart knife master rogues use two knives not a knife and a sword.
Oh I probably will in game but there is a certain appeal to sword/knife and I'd like to have the rules sorted if it comes up. At least as much as I can.
It may also be relevant to note that the faq in question if PFS, not general PF.
True but generally in my experience pathfinder society tends to be more restrictive in its rulings rather than less. So if they work it that way its probably good for general play use.
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*Note: It has been stated in an FAQ that this feat should function as the Universal Monster Ability Rend.
No. That is what the guy that wrote the comment in D20PFSRD wrote, not what the FAQ says.
This is the FAQ:
How does Rend work with power Attack in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?
Damage is rolled once per attack. If it's a longsword attack, the roll is 1d8, to which you add other modifiers, like Strength bonus, Weapon Specialization, and enhancement bonuses. If it's a short sword with sneak attack, the damage roll is 1d6+1d6 sneak attack. It's two dice, but it's a single damage roll. If it's a confirmed critical hit on a sneak attack while employing Power Attack with a flaming greataxe, the single damage roll is 3d12+3xStrength+2xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire. A full attack, you add Power Attack once to each attack that hits, even if each of those attacks also has other effects added to its final damage value. The rend universal monster rule grants the creature an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks. Since it's a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two, it gets Power Attack as well. Thus, a GM applying Power Attack to a rend damage roll is operating completely within the rules.
posted August 2013 | back to top
It says Rend, full stop, not Two Weapons Rend. Nowhere in the feat Two Weapons Rend it says that it gran the Rend ability.
The examples used in the FAQ are a bit misleading, as they speak of using weapons, but if you read it carefully they are examples of how power attack work, not necessarily related to the rend ability (the question is about Power attack when used with Rend, not about Rend).You shouldn't add sneak damage to a Two weapon rend as the feat says:
Benefit: If you hit an opponent with both your primary hand and your off-hand weapon, you deal an additional 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier. You can only deal this additional damage once each round.
It is additional damage, not an attack.
The monsters Rend ability instead says:
If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching on to the opponent’s body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round.
"This attack", so it is a separate attack that doesn't require a to hit.
That is interesting, as the Rend ability will be reduced by the target DR (it is a separated attack, while Two Weapons Rend is extra damage, and will be added to the damage dealt by the attacks that allowed it.
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Soo if I'm understanding you right per the rules . . .
Troll hits twice with his claws - makes 3rd attack that rends with all abilities.
Ranger hits twice with his swords - adds two weapon rend damage to attack.
Troll rogue hits twice with his claws - makes third attack and applies his sneak attack to his natural claw rend?
However with the way I read that FAQ it is talking about damage rolls not attack rolls and the d10 would be an extra damage roll. The issue for me then is the rogue's sneak attack is worded . . .
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
If the target was denied its dex on both the triggering attacks or if the rogue is flanking then theoretically it should apply to the rend. It is as I said an extra damage roll to a target denied its dex or flanked (applying as it does after two attacks that qualify hit) therefore the rogue should deal the sneak attack damage as they do on the individual ones. There's nothign in sneak attack about needing an attack roll. That is . . .
TARGET FLANKED
Primary ATTACK 1 Feint - succeeds also deny's dex.
Secondary Attack: Hits + 4d8 sneak attack damage.
Primary Attack: Miss.
Secondary Attack: Miss.
Primary Attack: Hit (natural 20) +4d4 Sneak Attack Damage.
Aplly rend damage: D10 + ?
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Aplly rend damage: D10 + ?
This is where we disagree.
It is:
"Apply Two Weapons Rend damage, d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier."
It is Two Weapons Rend, not Rend. The similarity in the name of the feat has no relation on how they work.
One is extra damage, the other is an extra attack.
You add sneak attack and power attack only once for each attack. You don't add them to extra damage.
To make a silly example, you don't add sneak attack again to sneak damage, as it is extra damage.
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Aplly rend damage: D10 + ?This is where we disagree.
It is:
"Apply Two Weapons Rend damage, d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier."It is Two Weapons Rend, not Rend. The similarity in the name of the feat has no relation on how they work.
One is extra damage, the other is an extra attack.
You add sneak attack and power attack only once for each attack. You don't add them to extra damage.To make a silly example, you don't add sneak attack again to sneak damage, as it is extra damage.
Yes we do disagree on if two handed rend counts as rend. In the linked faq it say's . . .
The rend universal monster rule grants the creature an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks. Since it's a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two, it gets Power Attack as well. Thus, a GM applying Power Attack to a rend damage roll is operating completely within the rules.
Now yes that's rend not two weapon rend but lets break down the descriptions. . .
Benefit: ,
Two Weapon
If you hit an opponent with both your primary hand and your off-hand weapon
Rend
If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round,
Two Weapon
you deal an additional 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier.
Rend
The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus.
Two Weapon
You can only deal this additional damage once each round.
Rend
This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature’s description.
The main difference is in this additional part of the rend description.
a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent’s body and tearing flesh.
The thing is while there's mention of latching on and tearing flesh mechanically it functions the same. If attack A hits and attack B hits do X damage extra. There's not as far as I can see any additional roll to rend you just like two weapon rend apply automatic damage once per round.
Now the FAQ linked is dealing with Rend but what it say's is . . .
Damage is rolled once per attack. If it's a longsword attack, the roll is 1d8, to which you add other modifiers, like Strength bonus, Weapon Specialization, and enhancement bonuses. If it's a short sword with sneak attack, the damage roll is 1d6+1d6 sneak attack. It's two dice, but it's a single damage roll. If it's a confirmed critical hit on a sneak attack while employing Power Attack with a flaming greataxe, the single damage roll is 3d12+3xStrength+2xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire. A full attack, you add Power Attack once to each attack that hits, even if each of those attacks also has other effects added to its final damage value. The rend universal monster rule grants the creature an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks. Since it's a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two, it gets Power Attack as well. Thus, a GM applying Power Attack to a rend damage roll is operating completely within the rules.
A rogues sneak attack states . . .
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every 2 rogue levels thereafter. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. This additional damage is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit.
As long as they meet those requirements (deny dex or flank) it applies to each attack like power attack not to just one specific attack. So to me going by this faq it should count towards the two weapon rend as well. Even if it is TWO WEAPON vs REND it is granting the rogue an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks and is a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two. That d10 rend damage is not applied to attack A or attack B its effectively an auto-hit attack C applied as bonus damage at the end of the round. Yes they use power attack as an example but sneak attack meets all the same requirements.
To put it another way a level 20 rogue has main hand +15, +10, +5 to hit and off hand +15, +10, +5 to hit. If they hit with the main and off hand +15 you don't apply the two weapon rend damage to the main hand or the off hand you apply it as a seperate damage roll and attack at the end of the round, similarly if you hit with all 6 attacks you don't apply rending damage 3 times you still only apply it once.
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The two abilities work similarly, but neither refers to the other. Nor the FAQ. Only the guy that wrote on D20PFSRD says differently.
The similarity of the names doesn't mean anything too. If I had an ability called Sneak walking that doesn't make it gives a sneak attack (unless its description says that).
Even if it is TWO WEAPON vs REND it is granting the rogue an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks and is a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two.
Bold statement. So you are arguing that additional damage counts as an additional attack?
It that is true, a Rogue will kill any opponent as soon as it deals additional damage.
He gets additional damage, so it is an additional attack that gets additional damage that is an additional attack and so on, ad infinitum.
The Rend ability says that it counts as an additional attack, the Two Weapons Rend that it counts as additional damage.
If you want to change the feat and you are the GM, more power to your players, but the rule text doesn't support you position.
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Thats covered in the faq though sneak attack dice are part of the attack not seperate. Even in rends description talks about damage not attack. If two weapon rend is damage not a seperate "attack" then the damage should apply to both attacks that triggered it not be a single extra damage roll at the end of the round.
Agreed. If Two Weapon Rend granted additional sneak attack, then so should every other plus to damage.
1d6(+8d6 sneak attack)+2(+8d6 sneak attack) Str + 4(+8d6 sneak attack) Power Attack + 2(+8d6 sneak attack) enhancement bonus...
I also think that Two Weapon Rend should just grant you rend as well. But that rend should not be considered an "additional attack".
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Rend: Natural attacks only, Rend damage is based on attack damage
TWR: Any attacks, Rend damage is always 1d10
Presumably, the fixed 1d10 is due to the exact sort of issue you raise... if the two weapons were a 1d4 dagger and a 1d8 sword, which would be used to calculate the rend damage? Have the player average the two? Instead, they just make it 1d10 and avoid the problem.
However, in the process the rule makes TWR a couple steps removed from Rend. You AREN'T doing extra damage based on the weapon(s), but rather based on the feat.
In any case, sneak attack is precision damage and rending doesn't strike me as precise. I wouldn't allow it with ANY version of rending. Power Attack, OTOH, modifies strength bonus damage... which is added to rend/TWR, and thus I'd allow it with both.