Ok so I'm looking at the unchained rogue with the knife master and scout archetypes and there are two possibilities for 1 level dips that seem like they'd offer a significant increase in the rogues abilities. I'm interested in any feedback on the purely mechanical side of things here. I'll try to provide as much information as I can to help the advice.
Option 1: Pure Rogue.
Pro's
Slightly faster progression of abiltiies (no 1 level dip), at 20th level you can have the target make a saving throw to avoid being put to sleep, paralysed (good for future attacks) or killed, rogue talent.
Cons
The 1 level delay isn't much, most foes would be likely to save against master strike, rogues get plenty of talents.
Impressions
Overall not a bad choice but doesn't give the beenfits the other classes do.
Option 2: 1 level Kintetic Knight.
Pro's
Gives you effectively an at will light weapon (finesse) that attacks touch AC and works against swarms. Gives you an ability to create a shadow to protect the target against bright light may or may not work with the hide in plain sight ability to use stealth as long as your within 10' of dim light (not sure on this). Can use Con in place of int for combat feats.
Cons
Has a 2/3 progression so your making your ability to attack even worse effectively 1 less rogue talent. Chaokinesis may not allow hide in plains sight.
Impressions
Interesting versatility increases (swarm combat, touch ac targetting, possible hide in plain sight) but heavy losses in return 1 fewer rogue talent and -1 to BAB.
Option 3: 1 level Swashbuckler.
Pro's
Gives you parry and riposte. Has a full BAB progression so no loss of attacking ability. Can use panache can dodge melee attacks useful for lower AC rogue. Can use panache to give a bonus to rogue useful skills like acrobatics or escape artist. Gives martial weapon proficiency and buckler proficiency.
Cons
Lose 1 rogue talent and master strike.
Impressions
Seems like a significant upgrade to a rogue's versatility in exchange for a highly situational ability and 1 talent.
Overall Thoughts: Right now I'm leaning towards uncahined Rogue (knife master, scout) 1, Swashbuckler 1, then unchained rogue for the rest.
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What level are you playing at, because chances are your level 20 ability doesn't matter (unless you're starting there).
Personally I think the Swashbuckler dip is the way I'd go, but I haven't played kineticist so I don't really know what it offers.
Also note that any dip delays your sneak attack progression, technically covered in your post, but it's worth calling out seperately. You can get 1d6-SA back with a feat, but then it's also costing you a feat.
MrCharisma wrote: What level are you playing at, because chances are your level 20 ability doesn't matter (unless you're starting there).
Personally I think the Swashbuckler dip is the way I'd go, but I haven't played kineticist so I don't really know what it offers.
Also note that any dip delays your sneak attack progression, technically covered in your post, but it's worth calling out seperately. You can get 1d6-SA back with a feat, but then it's also costing you a feat.
Wrath of the Righteous so lvl 1 to theoretical lvl 20, mythic 10. Anyway yes as you said there will be a delay on the sneak attack progression and even in WotR the lvl 20 ability is (a) unlikely to come into play and (b) unlikely to be much use given what it is.
1-2 levels Snakebite Brawler
1st lev: 1d6 sneak attack, improved unarmed strike, weapon profiency in closecombat weapons, +1 BAB, ignore int. prerequest for feats, Better fort and reflex saves
2nd lev: two weapon fighting with just one Brawler weapon which means you could ude a shield or a wand in the other hand. Free combat feat, +1 BAB, Better fort and reflex saves
Urban kyton BloodRager
1st lev: Dex rage, use bloodrager Wands, better hit points, Better fort saves, bloodline ability: auto sickened effekt on critical hits, +1 BAB
Unchained rogue actually gets some abilities besides rouge talents as they level up. By dipping you are also delaying these.
DEX to damage without having to spend a feat is extremely useful. Unlike the DEX to damage feats finesse training works with two handed weapons. If you are playing a half elf you can trade out skill focus for an exotic weapon proficiency. A unchained rouge using an elven curve blade can do significant damage even without sneak attack. Using the mythic rules means your DEX will be extremely high so this is even more significant.
Skill unlocks are often overlooked, but some of them are very good. Perception and sense motive are both very good. Debilitating Injury also scales up as you gain levels so those abilities are also delayed.
The unchained rogue talents are often significantly better than the original rogues. Major magic can get you shocking grasp once for every two levels. You can add your sneak attack to shocking grasp so that is nothing to sneeze about. You could even take a damaging cantrip and use that to sneak attack all day long.
You can do all of these things with a dip, but they are delayed. whether delaying these is worth what you get is up to you.
As someone that is nearly done playing Wrath of the Righteous... the level 20 ability will come into play. You should be Level 20 / Mythic 10 before the final boss. My party has just finished the second-to-last book and is 1 encounter away from level 19, and we're Mythic 9. So, yeah - after 1 fight we'll be level 19, and we have a whole rest of the book to get to level 20 before the boss.
With that said, level 20 is a long ways away. Some dips are worth it, obviously; hence your post.
Some specific things to mention:
Swarms:
Yes, they appear in the AP. I won't say when, but I will say we encountered them multiple times. They were sometimes important encounters, too; but they aren't constant.
Panache things:
Panache is good but it obviously requires some good CHA to take full advantage of - or good crit rates. Now, you CAN get some ungodly crit rates in Wrath of the Righteous thanks to Mythic, and indeed can build around it, but ask your GM what you'll be allowed to do.
My GM outright asked us not to use any of the crit-related stuff. It gets pretty crazy, to put it bluntly.
Touch AC:
Could be useful to target it, but not necessarily. That is, you can pump your attack bonuses REALLY high in Mythic play.
I think my character has to roll a 1 to miss against... basically anything. But then again he's a Divine Tracker / Demonslayer Ranger whose whole specialty is frothing at the mouth and chopping demons in half while screaming "WITNESS ME, GORUM!" with his greatsword.
However, in all seriousness? You can take Mythic abilities that remove the penalties on iteratives by taking the Champion Path or using Dual Path to get it. You can swift action add to your attack roll after the fact. Mythic Bless can allow you a free roll-twice-take-better on stuff. You can get a legendary weapon that casts SLAs of your choice, like Heroism. And... etc.
Another dip to consider:
In all seriousness, if you REALLY wanted to dip, I'd consider Ranger. Not every enemy is a demon, but I assure you that the +2 attack/damage vs. evil outsiders WILL. COME. INTO. PLAY. CONSTANTLY.
Furthermore, Ranger opens up the ability to ignore DR via the Champion Path and Endless Hatred. It's useful early on for sure.
I say this as someone playing a Ranger, of course. But when you're getting +10 attack/damage from Endless Hatred, Destruction Blessing for 1/2 level damage, and the paladin uses Aura of Justice to give you smite evil...
...it's pretty nice.
One last thing:
SOMEONE in your party better roll a paladin, and SOMEONE better worship Iomedae. The paladin would be a natural choice. I swear to God, you NEED to ensure someone does that.
No, seriously. Tell your group! PALADIN! This campaign was MADE for paladins!
I see thanks for the advice.
I dont want to dip multiple levels not even sure i want one but these seem good chocies. I'm trying to avoid metaing the character too much knowing how classes work and swarms being a thing is fine but knowing you'll be facing lots of demons and ranger favoured enemy is borderline. It is somewhat believable givem the area but still.
To be honest at this stage ive got most of what i want to do with the character worked out its just is a 1 level dip worth it and when i shlukd dip thats left to work out.
Yeah, I'm avoiding actual spoilers, but there's stuff the Player's Guide outright tells you. "Rangers should take favored enemy: evil outsider" is among them.
I'd suggest reading the player's guide if you haven't, actually. The player's guide outright pushes for some of the stuff I talked about. It's VERY clear that the big bad enemy type you will constantly face is demons.
In fact, the player's guide all but says "PLAY A PALADIN, DAMMIT!"
Oh, one thing I want to add @OP:
In Mythic you *will* get ways to full attack with TWF. A lot. My character, just as an example, started the game off using an orc double axe. The Champion Path offered me multiple ways to get into melee quickly and get all those attacks off. There's good stuff waiting for you. The same is true for the Trickster Path. Ultimately, you can and will find a way to shift how the action economy works because Mythic is CRAZY.
Just as an example, a Mythic character can do stuff like this:
Swift Action > Cast Spell
Use Amazing Initiative to get a second Standard Action
Use extra standard action to drink a potion held in hand or use a spell from a special weapon
Make a full attack while taking a move action
All in the same turn. And our paladin in my group uses her "ADVANCE!" ability to make everyone get an extra move action.
Playing a rogue will be easy if your group has good coordination. Mythic is fun.
Oh I know, in fact one of my other concepts was a ranger with evil outsider as a favoured enemy and cold iron arrows. Things shifted since then though.
I can pretty much respond to the play a paladin with "NO!" Though admitedly a large part of that is the GM loves paladins and playing them, he's generally a good GM but he does tend to push "play the class/race the way I think it should be played" so none of us want to play a paladin because we'd have to constantly deal with how he thinks it should be played rather than how we want to play it (I had problems with being an elf in one of his games once. Due to having to play it his way the rest of the party got killed by an assasin). Other classes/races its less of an issue but I'm pretty sure no one wants to touch paladin with a 10' pole when he's GMing.
Senko wrote: Oh I know, in fact one of my other concepts was a ranger with evil outsider as a favoured enemy and cold iron arrows. Things shifted since then though.
I can pretty much respond to the play a paladin with "NO!" Though admitedly a large part of that is the GM loves paladins and playing them, he's generally a good GM but he does tend to push "play the class/race the way I think it should be played" so none of us want to play a paladin because we'd have to constantly deal with how he thinks it should be played rather than how we want to play it (I had problems with being an elf in one of his games once. Due to having to play it his way the rest of the party got killed by an assasin). Other classes/races its less of an issue but I'm pretty sure no one wants to touch paladin with a 10' pole when he's GMing.
That's understandable. I hope he adjusts the AP accordingly. I won't give spoilers, but I mean it when I say "This AP wants someone to play a paladin."
It'll be fun regardless, and what's important is everyone plays the characters they want to play. Good luck!
Oh, I should add this blurb real quick. Ask your GM if you can use this metal. It's not good to use for weapons you plan to keep, but it's amazing for starting gear:
Quote: Nexavaran Steel
Source Faction Guide pg. 55
Forged by the Mendevian smiths of Nerosyan out of iron and the unique mineral nexavar, this bluish steel strikes true against monsters vulnerable to cold iron (such as demons). Weapons made of nexavaran steel cost 1-1/2 times as much to make as their normal counterparts. This steel is even more delicate than cold iron regarding magical enhancements; adding enhancements to the steel increases its price by 3,000 gp. This increase is applied the first time the item is enhanced, not once per ability added. Nexavaran steel is otherwise identical to cold iron.
Basically, it's cheaper than Cold Iron by a little bit. Nexavaran Steel costs 1.5x the cost of a normal weapon whereas Cold Iron costs 2.0x the same weapon. However, Nexavaran Steel is REALLY expensive to enchant, so... don't do that. Get non-masterwork Nexavaran Steel weapons for the game start if you're allowed, but it's just temporary stuff to see you through the beginning of the game.
You're in the nation of Mendev, so lorewise this checks out.
Rogues have a lot of level-dependent abilities so generally it's not a bad bet to keep the character solo-classed, a non-exhausting list :
Sneak attack, number of rogue (maybe greater) tricks, bleed, etc. -> Individually, the dip wouldn't impact these much, but add everything up and the added losses might be more felt.
The downside is on the low resilience of the class compared to other melees. It's only my point of view, but I wouldn't invest too much in trying to hide in plain sight, being invisible or else, NPCs will be able to detect anyway.
A single-level or a two-level dip would solve part of this resilience problem, but there's wondering if having a lowered strongpoint with a handful of smaller abilities is a good alternative - one example could be main rogue with two paladin levels, or a multidip of main rogue with one level each of either ranger and brawler (or any other combination), this is to the player's POV.
Wrath of the Righteous does scream Paladin-driven, but I would take the opposite approach : I advise against the class, and more broadly being LG in general. It's highly possible there would be antipaladins or any kind of opponents bringing a specific anti-game, or would be stronger against them, while a LN character wouldn't have as much problems. If the party every has to fight inside the Abyss, it would be even worse because of plane penalties (and paladins specifically can easily get slowed, I don't know if it's by Holy Word or Unholy Blight)
Everything can be summed up in a single question : would you prioritize specific strengths/weaknesses or being more generalistic (weaker but applies everywhere) ?
I'd recommend Sanctified Slayer + Ravener Hunter Inquisitor over Rogue. You get spells, Bane, Studied Target, Sneak Attack, Oracle revelation(s), the Demon Hunter feat 3 levels early, 6 skill ranks per level, medium armor, and arguably better weapon choices. You're SO much more versatile, and you'll honestly be MUCH more combat-effective.
Quote: Wrath of the Righteous does scream Paladin-driven, but I would take the opposite approach : I advise against the class, and more broadly being LG in general. It's highly possible there would be antipaladins or any kind of opponents bringing a specific anti-game, or would be stronger against them, while a LN character wouldn't have as much problems. If the party every has to fight inside the Abyss, it would be even worse because of plane penalties (and paladins specifically can easily get slowed, I don't know if it's by Holy Word or Unholy Blight) As someone that has played, while there is some truth to this there are can't-say-because-spoiler reasons - and I mean many good reasons - to want to have one Paladin in the group.
If your Unchained Rogue is going to dip 1 and only 1 level in 1 and only 1 class, I'd have him dip a level in Arcanist. You'll be able to use just about any Arcane Magic Wand, and you get an Arcane Exploit. I really like Dimensional Slide for a Rogue: a 10' Teleport you can do as part of a move, and it doesn't end your turn. It's not a lot, but it should really help achieve Flanking and lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.
And +2 Will Save. Rogues have Poor Will Saves, and Will is the most important Save to have.
Are the Retraining rules available to you? --Then dip early to front-load goodies, then gradually retrain dip levels away later to unlock straight-class end-loaded stuff.
Maybe though I've never used them.
Arcanist has the same problem as kinetic knight in that you lower your BAB with a 0 attack.
EDIT
Finally took a look at the inquisitor option. It may be mechanically better but the flavour just doesn't appeal to me. A religious assasin may be quite good in wrath but for this character its not something I want to play.
Shorticus wrote: As someone that has played, while there is some truth to this there are can't-say-because-spoiler reasons - and I mean many good reasons - to want to have one Paladin in the group. Roleplay-wise, playing a paladin is a slam dunk. But the RP can't be separated from the mechanical implications of it. Lots will disagree and it's fine, but I'll say none of the aspects is higher than the other. Playing a paladin might reap big rewards, but also involves equal risks. Pondering the pros and cons of the choice, the net weight falls more on the latter than the former.
I might easily trust a player going there with a paladin of Abadar, I wouldn't hide any misgiving on the flipside if the patron is Ragathiel, Torag or another edgier personality because there's no guarantee the player will be responsible enough, when with more balanced deities, it's a given or powers will be lost. I'd prefer a paladin who can prove being a diplomat at times even with demons, rather than an overzealous brat.
Speaking back about the main topic, if I have to choose a two-level dip, I might fancy one level of Avenger Vigilante. The saving throw bonuses are always good (although sadly not in Fortitude), is full BAB so attack bonuses aren't hurt and there's the need of disguising alignment at times, and there's grabbing an extra intrigue feat or something else helping adventuring. The second level would probably involve the Cavalier. Roleplay there's no real reasons to do so, but it would open more teamwork opportunities. Giving out Precise Strike or Outflank is nver bad even at the expense of a standard action.
Quote: Roleplay-wise, playing a paladin is a slam dunk. But the RP can't be separated from the mechanical implications of it. Lots will disagree and it's fine, but I'll say none of the aspects is higher than the other. Playing a paladin might reap big rewards, but also involves equal risks. Pondering the pros and cons of the choice, the net weight falls more on the latter than the former. For this particular campaign, I assure you that the rewards outweight the risks of playing a paladin. There have been a couple encounters that were especially dangerous for paladins, of course. But... mechanically speaking, there are a few very key incentives to play a paladin in Wrath of the Righteous, especially a paladin of Iomedae.
I should add that the nature of the campaign - and the player's guide itself - actively pushes you toward playing characters willing to redeem others. Even my demonslayer ranger and the dwarf that worshiped Ragathiel were designed with this in mind because the Player's Guide told us that was going to be an option.
Essentially, I think that so long as people read the player's guide and actually take what it says into account they'll do well.
Quote: Speaking back about the main topic, if I have to choose a two-level dip, I might fancy one level of Avenger Vigilante. The saving throw bonuses are always good (although sadly not in Fortitude), is full BAB so attack bonuses aren't hurt and there's the need of disguising alignment at times, and there's grabbing an extra intrigue feat or something else helping adventuring. The second level would probably involve the Cavalier. Roleplay there's no real reasons to do so, but it would open more teamwork opportunities. Giving out Precise Strike or Outflank is nver bad even at the expense of a standard action. Vigilante's main issue is that the secret identity stuff would have virtually no bearing on this particular campaign. However, it's an otherwise solid choice.
Cavalier is also solid. There's several interesting orders and archetypes. Fun class.
I'd still put Ranger among the picks. Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider only makes sense.
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